The Assembly met at 12:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Tributes to Carl Sargeant

We have gathered in this Senedd on many occasions to remember and pay tribute to people we have known, and others we have not. Today, we gather to remember one of our own: Carl Sargeant, Assembly Member and representative of the people of Alyn and Deeside in this National Assembly. His death has shaken us to our core, and his absence from our midst pains us today. But our loss pales in comparison to that felt by his community, his friends, his staff, and especially his family, some of whom join us here today. On behalf of all of us, I extend the deepest sympathy to Carl's family, especially to his wife Bernie, children Lucy and Jack, and to his parents. You are in our thoughts and in our hearts at this time. I would like to invite Members and staff and visitors throughout our buildings to stand and to join me in observing a minute's silence in memory of Carl Sargeant.

Assembly Members stood for a minute’s silence.

I call on the First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

Carwyn Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I rise this afternoon to remember Carl, as a politician, as a colleague, and as a friend. I want first to express my deep sympathies to Bernie and the family. For them, it's been a time of unbearable loss and deep trauma. As a father and husband myself, I can't begin to imagine what they're going through. I hope they've found some comfort in each other and in the many messages of support from around Wales.
Carl was somebodywhose presence in thisChamber was obvious to all. He took more legislation through here than any other Minister. And he had a knack of turning difficult pieces of legislation into something worth while. There's no better example of that than the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015—an idea that began as little more than one line in a manifesto and nothing else. When I told him he was going to take it forward, his response was, 'Thanks for that', but he turned it into something that is now being talked about around the world.
I first met Carl in Connah'sQuay Labour Club in 2001. I'd gone to speak to the local Labour party when Tom Middlehurst was the Assembly Member. When he was elected here in 2003, we became friends. His particular talents came to the fore when he was chief whip, when I saw withmy own eyes that he was capableof gentle berating where necessary, to, on one occasion taking a reluctant AM out to feed the ducks to persuade them to vote the right way. A man of many talents. In all the years I knew him, we never had a cross word. We spent a lot of time talking together about the challenges of being a dad and the pressures of politics, sometimes gossiping about Cabinet colleagues. And he was always full of advice. Only last year he told me that he was the only one allowed a grey beard in Cabinet, so I had to shave mine off, First Minister or not. I had no choice but to listen.
He was ever-present in the Cabinet, and with good reason. I appointed him because he was good at legislation, he was good with people, and because he brought the voice of Deeside to the heart of Government.
In 2003, he was a key part of my leadership campaign. His role was to organise things in the north, but things didn't always go smoothly. He organised a curry evening with party members, in a curry house in his constituency. And as I was being driven there, he phoned in a panic,'Don't come', he said, 'the restaurant is being raided by the border agency', or words to that effect. We'd often meet up in Lesley Griffiths's room in the Assembly, late at night during that leadership campaign, when he would always be the last to arrive, and he'd make a great show of pretending to look around him to make sure he hadn't been followed. He did that every time we had those meetings.
His voice was usually welcome, but not always. We went to London together to a parliamentary Labour Party Christmas party some years ago, and we shared a room in a hotel in Paddington. I have to admit that I left early, but Carl soldiered on, and I was woken at three in the morning to hear Carl's voice on my phone saying, 'What's the name of the hotel we're staying in?' Having woken me up, he then arrived and went to sleep, only for us to be woken up by the fire alarm at seven o'clock in the morning. We at least had nothing to do with that.
Carl was a great one for karaoke. The Labour group bash at Christmas always had him as the DJ and the karaoke king, and he was good at it, putting many of us to shame at his fortieth birthday party. He loved to remind us, when he said, 'You south Walians can't sing', and in my case that was utterly true. It is difficult to imagine what it'll be like this year without him, and in subsequent years.
He was also, as Members will remember, the best heckler in the Chamber—never nasty, always witty. The Conservative benches will know that, whenever the leader of the opposition rose to speak, he would invariably call out someone else's name. And so, Paul Davies, Darren Millar, Angela Burns have all been called in turn to speak as leader of the opposition.
Yes, that was the man that we called 'Sarge'. Well-liked and committed, jovial but determined, firm but fun, and he will be missed by his family, by those in this Chamber, and by the nation.

I call on the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer.
This is not anoccasion that I ever thought that I would be speaking to in this Chamber, and, indeed, in the whole 10 years that I have been a Member of the institution, Carl always sat opposite me. Whether I was sitting in the corner there, in my first seat when I came into this Chamber in 2007, or by progression around the Chamber, Carl was always opposite, and, on a typical Tuesday, we'd look at each other and he would grin and he would wink, and I would wink back at him, and as the First Minister identified, when I was called to take my First Minister's questions, it was always 'Paul Davies' or 'Darren Millar.' But that was Carl. Carl was a character, but he was a serious individual, who knew what his role was in this institution. And that role was to speak for the people of Alyn and Deeside and to speak for the people the length and breadth of Wales who didn't have a voice, in the various ministerial positions that he held within the Welsh Government. And he held those positions with huge pride and passion. From the opposition point of view, very often you sit in here, and sometimes the Chamber can look quite bare on a Wednesday afternoon. It is fair to say that Carl was nearly always in his seat in this Chamber, engaging with the debate, engaging with the discussion, because he believed passionately in what he wanted to achieve, and that was a better Wales, a better community in Alyn and Deeside and, above all, a legacy that he could proudly look back on and say, 'I shaped that.'
Well, it is true to say that he did become the legislator in chief in this institution—four major pieces of legislation. Very often, politicians are lucky if they get one piece of legislation through in their lifetime; Carl put four pieces of legislation through. For a man to come from the factory floor and wake up each morning to put a collar and tie on and put the cufflinks in, and have that as a legacy—each piece of legislation will have a massive impact on the outcomes here in Wales about improving people's lives.
We have lost a colleague, we have lost a friend, but Bernie, Lucy and Carl's son have lost a father and a husband, and that pain and that distress must be burning fiercely at the moment. But what I and many on our benches on this side, and, I believe, across this Chamber hope will shine through in the fullness of time are the many happy memories that they will all have of the great times that they had with Carl, as a father, as a mentor and as an inspiration.17
You speak as you find, but I have to say he is one of the most genuine men that I've had the privilege to meet, and that picture up there of Carl sums the man up: always a smile on his face, always a kind word to say, always a quip as well as you walked down the corridor, and every time I saw him it was always, 'What's happening, boss, what's happening, boss?' I think that would be the same for many people in this Chamber. The word 'boss' comes from where Carl came from: the factory floor. Because the amount of times that I'm on the farmyard and people arrive there—'What's happening, boss?'—you get the same reply from them as well.18
His legacy will last for many years and many decades, for the work that he did as an AM, and I passionately hope that that sunshine comes sooner rather than later for Carl's family, because ultimately he has a legacy to be proud of and it has been a privilege and an honour to call Carl a fellow Assembly Member of the National Assembly for Wales. We join his family, his friends and his colleagues in grieving at his loss here today and in the subsequent days and weeks that follow.

I call the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to add to the tributes to Carl Sargeant, again, after expressingmy condolences and respects to his family and friends and colleagues inside this Chamber and, indeed, across the country. I was elected to this institution in 2003, the same year as Carl Sargeant, and, from my perspective, something that I associate him with is his rootedness and his authenticity. He was a politician who was authentically working class, he was rooted in and committed to his community, living among the people that he represented, never forgetting them, always working for them. He was a worker himself, of course, who came into politics after seeing fellow workers in his constituency fall into economic hardship. Carl Sargeant was a politician who could neverbe accused of being out of touch. His loss is a blow to this Assembly and I, and Plaid Cymru, share the loss felt across this Chamber and across the country.
My colleague Bethan Jenkins AM is not able to be here today to pay her own personal tribute to her friend Carl Sargeant, because she's suffered an injury. She would have spoken, so I've agreed to say some words from Bethan on her behalf. So, this is from Bethan Jenkins:
'Carl Sargeant was a friend of mine from across the political divide. Despitemany people telling me that I should not have friends from different parties, I've always been of the belief that we are human first. All I know was that whenever I needed support or someone to speak to about anything, Carl was at the other end of the phone. We joked after I would raise questions in Plenary with him that even though we clashed politically he still respected me, and vice versa. I can say for the record that I am devastated. My support rock in that place has gone. Gorwedd mewn hedd, Carl.'
So, those are the words from Bethan Jenkins where she pays tribute to Carl Sargeant, adding to the tributes from all of us here in Plaid Cymru. Diolch yn fawr.

The leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Carl Sargeant was a gentle giant and I am saddened beyond measure by the tragedy which occasions this tribute.
Although the full story is yet to be established, Carl did not deserve to suffer as he did.I know from bitter personal experience the anguish that must have engulfed Carl and his family just over a week ago in the wake of the allegations against him. Sixteen years ago, my wife and Iwere both accused of rape,a story that became a tabloid sensation. Now, if you’re in public life then life is public, but unless you’ve experienced it you can’t fully appreciate the pressures created by the publicity and the sense of isolation that it engenders. The presumption of innocence to which all accused persons are entitled under British law often becomes obscured. It’s easy for the public to forget that politicians are human beings, with feelings, hopes, fears, emotions and insecurities. They’re not soap opera characters, but flesh and blood. Too often forgotten by critics swift to judgment stands the family behind the politician: spouses, children, parents and others, and Carl’s family must feel as if they’ve been hit by an express train. I send them my most genuine condolences in their enduring distress, because that is the heart-rending human cost of the political bear pit.
I’m pleased that the coroner will be, quote,
'examining carefully the steps taken by the Assembly to have regard to Mr Sargeant’s mental welfare prior to his death’.
Collectively, we’ve clearly failed our late colleague in this respect.
Carl and I were diametrically opposed politically, and we cheerfully hurled verbal bricks at each other across the Chamber, but he was a civilised and decent man, and big enough to recognise an opponent’s sincerity, and he didn’t allow political differences to preclude cordial relations outside the Chamber. I indeed had a jokey conversation with him on the way back to our offices after the last Plenary session, a week ago last Wednesday. I little thought that was the last time that I would see him.
As a recent arrival here, I didn’t know him very well, but I liked him for his avuncular geniality, his friendliness and his authenticity—above all for his authenticity. He was a genuine man of the people, never lost touch with his roots, and I believe still lived on the council estate where he grew up. He never acquired airs and graces, despite rising to and holding high office in government for many years. I frequently saw him sitting with Assembly catering staff or security in the canteen. He never saw himself as more important than anybody else.
I admired him also for his candour and his openness. For example, I was impressed by the decisive way that he handled the failures of Communities First. He was not a man for stonewalling or self-justification. He shot straight from the shoulder and told it like it is. As a result he earned my respect and perhaps blunted my sword.
Carl’s family has lost its mainspring. The Assembly has lost a worthy Member. Wales has lost a devoted son. May he rest in peace, and let us all honour his memory.

Lesley Griffiths AC: One week on, it is still so hard to process that we are here today paying our respects with our tributes to Carl. I too first met Carl 16 years ago in Connah’s Quay Labour Club, or 'Sargie’s headquarters', as it’s locally known. He was proud to be elected to this place in 2003 by the people of Alyn and Deeside. I followed in 2007, and we quickly became great friends, travelling up and down together from north Wales most weeks.
Carl lived in the heart of his community in Connah’s Quay. He never forgot his roots, and he was proud of his working-class background. On the day he entered Cabinet, and I Government, we shared the journey home excited about the future, and what we felt we could achieve for the people of Wales, and Carl achieved so much. He took through the most legislation of any Minister. There are very few Bills and Acts that Carl did not have a hand in. He championed the work being undertaken to end violence against women, homelessness and modern slavery. He became a White Ribbon ambassador, telling how he first experienced witnessing domestic abuse in his neighbourhood following the closure of Shotton steelworks, when he saw his community torn apart. Each year, he supported victims of domestic abuse by walking 'a mile in her shoes', although he always struggled to walk in those stilettoes.
Carl was an amazing politician, a highly skilled negotiator, but not necessarily in the style you might expect from a senior Cabinet Secretary. He knew in order to get the best out of people it was better to persuade and influence over tea and custard creams, or sometimes something stronger. He treated everyone the same, whether it was a constituent who sought his advice, whether he was chatting to royalty at the opening of the National Assembly, speaking to Eton-educated UK Government Ministers, or the bloke sat next to him at the bar in Mischief’s. He was full of fun, and very mischievous at times, but he took his role as an elected representative very seriously, and he was proud to be an advocate for his constituents, particularly those who did not have a voice.
Here in this Assembly, and in Welsh Government, he treated everyone equally. He cared for and supported all of us, his Assembly Member colleagues, not just in our group but across all political parties. He adored the staff in his constituencyoffice and his ministerial private office. The staff in our canteen and here in security were amongst his favourites. He had a special place in his heart for his special and specialist advisers. In Government, he respected his officials and the many Bill teams he worked with. But I think his absolute favourites were the ministerialdrivers. They couldwrite a book filled with storiesabout the many hours they spent travelling around Wales during Carl's 10 yearsin Government.
Carl had a wicked sense of humour and loved making me and others laugh, often at the most inappropriate times. His banter was legendary and he always won the award for heckler of the year. It was a pleasure to sit next to him in Cabinet and here in the Chamber, where one of Carl's most importantjobs was to ensure our shared drawer always had a good supply of sweets. One day, he brought some new ones in and told me just to try one, but I in my usual style grabbed a handful, only to find on eating themthey were hot chilli sweets. He could barely contain his gleefulness at my discomfort.
A few years ago, he took up a new hobby and decidedto teach himself to crochet. He would sit on the train home with a self-teaching YouTube video, a crochet hook and some wool. It was not without its frustrations; severaltimes, everything ended up on the floor. But, like everythinghe took up, he soon mastered it and he made some beautiful items. You could see the bemused looks of fellow passengers watchingthis big, burly guy crocheting a tiny, pink baby bonnet.
Carl was one of the most generouspeople I have ever met, particularly with his time, and he loved socialising with his family and friends. Behind his burly and jovial exterior was a beautiful, sensitive and vulnerable soul. He always told people how specialand unique they were, becausehe cared how people felt. He was kind to people, and being kind to people is a wonderful legacy to leave behind.
He was my best comrade and friend. I loved him as a brother, and although his pet name for me was 'mother'—even though I of course was not quite old enough to be his mother—I know he loved me as a sister. He cared for me and my girls as an extension of his own family and we are heartbroken he is no longer with us. But our loss is incomparable with the unspeakablegrief felt by Bernie, Lucy and Jack, who he loved deeply and of whom he was so proud.
To them, Carl's parents, and all his family, we offer all our love and support over the difficult weeks and months ahead.Carl, I will never forget you and I will miss you deeply. RIP, comrade.

Ken Skates AC: Carl was a person who didn't just wear his heart on his sleeve, he wore many other things on his sleeve, including a tattooof his favourite drink—a dark and stormy, or, as he would have put it, a dark and stormy, boss. He was not a conventional politician. He was full of charisma and love of life. But he never had an opportunity to validate his academic intelligence with a university degree. That said, Ido think he probably possessed a greater degree of emotional intelligence than most of us in this Chamber today.
I first met Carl back in the 1990s, during a time in which he had more hair and I had more weight. We were incredibly excited about the politics of the future. During the course of his first election—. It's worth saying that he never lost an election, nor did he ever lose a selection. During the course of his first election, it became apparent that he had a unique way of speakingwith his constituents on the doorstep. He must have met tens of thousands of people during his first election, knocking on so many doors across Alyn and Deeside. He would complete each conversation with the constituentswith a slightlyabrupt and, given his frame, a slightlymenacing, 'Hey', and then he'd follow it up with a meltingly warm, 'You take care'.
He'd say this to everybody. Right to the end, he'd say, 'Take care, bud. Take care, brother. Take care, sister.' And the peoplehe would wish us to take care of most now are his family. His wife, Bernie—Bernie, whose attributesand skills are not learnt through professional development but are intuitive—her understanding, her compassion, are what make her such a good friend and colleague to those she loves.His wonderful daughter, Lucy—again, incredibly compassionate, with such empathy and resilience; somebody who shares her dad's fantastic sense of humour. Then there's Jack—creative, innovative, caring Jack—again, so full of love for the people who are close to him. And we can't forget Joey—little Joey. Nobody puts Joey in the corner—he will attend the funeral. Then there are the wider family members and friends, and the community. Their blood ran through Carl's body, and of this he was immensely proud.
We must obey the weight of these sad times, but speak what wefeel, not what we ought to say. I do think that Carl regularly spoke about his feelings, and about his love of his family and his love of life.Carl loved music. He liked to listen to music and he liked to dance to music—to songs like 'I Love to Love', 'Voulez-vouz' and many, many others. Over theentrance to his family and friends room at home—a great room where he'd be able to deejay, share drinks, share stories, share love—are the words of one of his favourite songs:
'Sometimes I feel like throwing my hands up in the air. / I know I can count on you. / Sometimes I feel like saying, "Lord, I just don't care." / But you've got the love I need to see me through.'
I think if there is to be a legacy, a lasting legacy, to Carl, it should be that we should all show a little more love and care for one another, that we should be kinder and more respectful to one another, not just in here but across our society, to change our culture for the better.
Finally, Carl, I would say this to you: there is only one more door you must knock on, but, on behalf of all of those people whose doors were opened, and whose hearts were opened to you—Carl, you take care.

Ann Jones AC: I rise to remember Carl first and foremost as the Chief Whip, and him coming along the corridor every Tuesday morning to see whether I was going to obey the whip. My researcher really thought that was such a nice, caring attitude from the Chief Whip. I won't tell you what I used to say to him, but he would know from that whether we were ready for a row. But Carl never raised his voice. I did—I used to raise my voice down the corridor. I think people could hear what I was going to do on the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure.
I remember coming to that vote, and he asked, 'Well, what are you going to do, then, mate? Come on, mate. Come on, mate—you're supposed to be with us now, mate. What are you going to do?' And I said, 'Wait and see'. Then I decided that I probably would vote with the whip on that occasion, and I called him out to tell him. He thought that I was going to tell him that I wasn't going to do it. We stood in what I know as the Richard Rogers corridor there, and the door was open. I think it was colleagues in the Conservative Party who, when I sat back down, said, 'Oh, I didn't know that's how you spoke to your Chief Whip'. So, that was a lesson for me there.
But Carl never held a grudge. Carl always, always did what he could for the Vale of Clwyd. I did jokingly say today that I was going to get someone to throw a bucket of water over me before I stood to speak, because whenever Carl came in his portfolio as environment Minister, you could guarantee it was pouring with rain, it was howling a gale and we were up to our ankles in mud. The riverbanks of the Elwy, and we were there and I've told this story, and it's kept me going, so I hope it will keep Bernie and the family going. He's standing on the bank and starting to slide, and I'm trying to move back. He's pulling me, and he's 'Come on, come on—we're together on this', and I'm going, 'No, we're not—I'm going back up to the top'.
And then the one that is my favourite is when we stood on Rhyl promenade to open the sea defences. Denbighshire have got a lovely ribbon for us to cut, and provided us with an umbrella that immediately turned inside out. So, Carl just handed that, and the driver was sitting there. We tried to cut this ribbon, and he said to the cameras—the BBC and ITV—he said,'Well, she calls this sunny Rhyl; the next time you mention sunny Rhyl in the Chamber, I'm going to remind you that we've never been here in sunny Rhyl.' But Carl used to come to Rhyl with his family. Carl knew more about the development of Rhyl than I did at times, because he would walk around those streets, and that was the measure of the man. Carl knew the people in Rhyl as much as he knew the people in Connah's Quay, because we are similar—the same communities—and that was where Carl had his heart: in that community of people whose voices were not heard, or sometimes not heard loudly enough. Carl used to say to me, 'Listen mate, never ever forget—just you keep doing what you're doing for your area, because that's important'.
The one thing that I will always remember Carl for is domestic fire safety—so, you see, we're back to water again—and sprinklers. Carl got those regulations through and it means that we have safe houses in Wales. Even after the Grenfell Tower disaster, Carl right up until the last was finding a way in which he could protect those communities who perhaps didn't understand they needed protecting—but that we would protect them. So, that is the legacy of the man—a great man, a huge personality, made me laugh, made me cry, and frustrated me at times. But, above all, Carl was, and still is, a man of his own community, and I will miss him.

Alun Davies AC: Bernie, we're all going to miss Carl more than you'll ever believe, but nobody will miss him more than you and the family—Jack and Lucy and everybody else who knew him so well.
I first met Carl when I was elected in 2007 and somebody, obviously with some sense of humour, put myself and Lesley in the office opposite him. I didn't know what to expect from a Chief Whip; I certainly didn't expect Carl, I think that's fair to say. I remember coming back up from a vote down here up to the corridor—he'd always managed to get there before me; I don't know how he managed it—and you'd hear the music blaring from his office. You'll know, Becks, as you were working for him at the time. You'd walk past the office and Carl would be sitting down dancing with his music coming from—well, I never quite worked out where—and Becks would be sitting smiling, and myself and Lesley and others would walk in there and chat and talk, and everybody was smiling. It was a great introduction to this place and to Carl, and whenever I think of Carl I think of that smile we can see in front of us. I can hear his voice sometimes: 'Morning, bro, you're late' or 'Where are you, boss? I got this for you an hour ago; where have you been? Drink it'—and all sorts of different times where we shared all sorts of different things. You know, the one thing that is in short supply in politics is trust, and I trusted him completely. I knew whenever anything was happening that I could always pick up the phone to Carl, or I'd get a text from him. He almost knew it when there was something going on in any of our lives. It was, 'How are you, brother?', 'How are you, boss?', 'What are you up to, boss?', 'Where are you, boss?', 'Are you around, boss?', 'Come out', 'Where are you?'—and he would always be there.
You know, when we talk about Carl, we talk about his achievements in politics. I always remember him as a very, very decent and honourable, authentic friend and a mate of mine. The last few words he used to me were, 'All right, mate?', and it was everything I wanted to hear at that time. And, you know, Carl was a guy who wore his responsibilities lightly. You'd never have guessed that he had the achievements behind him that he had. But he cared deeply—he cared deeply—and all of us who worked alongside him know how deeply held his convictions were, and how deeply he cared about what he was doing and how deeply he believed in fair play and social justice. Fair play ran through Carl. It ran through everything he was. He grew up in Connah's Quay, and it was something that stayed with him. And whenever we were having conversations, it would always come back to that fairness and fair play. And you know, Bernie, we'll always remember that, and we'll always make sure that Carl has fair play.In everything that we do and everything that we say in remembering him, we'll remember that smile.
I knew what he was thinking in meetings because he'd be texting me. I wish he hadn't. There were all sorts of colleagues and comrades making very serious points and I'd see him looking at me and I'd think, 'Oh my God, not another text message.' I'd open the text message and I would spend time listening to a serious debate suppressing my giggles because Carl—and I can see him across there now—would be smiling at me and winking at me, knowing the discomfiture he's caused me.
In rememberingour friend, our colleague, we've all used very similar words, actually. We've all written our tributes separately but we've all come back to very similar words: authentic and generous and caring and kind. We all knew the same man. Bernie, you'll miss him. I know you're going to miss him and I know how terribly you're going to miss him, with Jack and Lucy and everybody else, but I want you to know that this institution will miss him as well. Our country will miss him. We're all the better for having known him. Thank you.

Paul Davies AC: When I first arrived at this place some 10 and a half years ago, I expected it to be very tribal and highly party-politicised. Naturally, in some ways it was. However, it was this unassuming gentle giant who convinced me that, outside this Chamber, it wasn't and it isn't like that. It was Carl's warmth, his affection and his kindness that persuaded me that our party politics should stay in this Chamber and that, outside, our humanity should always come first.That's why it was always a pleasure to be in his company and I always enjoyed having a drink with the big man.
Of course, it was clear he loved the Labour Party and it was clear he loved his constituency and representing his local area. His dedication and commitmentto the people he represented always shone through in all the discussionsI had with him. For me, he was fun to be with and there was always a glint in his eye. Every time I saw him, he oozed that cheeky chappy attitude. You never knew what he would say, which made being with him all the more entertaining.
That sense of fun certainlycame through when, a few years ago, some of us in this Chamber celebrated Lesley Griffiths's birthday. I remember we arrived in a well-known Cardiff Bay pub and I recall standing at the bar when, suddenly, I started to hear friends and colleagues around me laughing. I glanced across and all I saw was Carl pointing to his jumper. I then looked at what I was wearing and I realised, to my horror, that we were wearing an identical jumper. But it doesn't end there. In fact, we were both also wearing dark trousers and, of course, as you would expect, someone started calling us twins. For those of you who've seen the 1988 film Twins, starringArnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito—well, Carl insistedfor the rest of the evening that he was Danny DeVito and not me.
That's what I will always rememberabout Carl. Every time I was with him, we would laugh. But he was a serious and committed politician who cared about his constituents, and he got people. He understood people. After all, politics is about people and Carl definitely got that.
Llywydd, for me, I will miss a political opponent. I willmiss his banter in this place. I will miss his funny comments in this Chamber. But more importantly, I will miss a personal friend.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Before I start to pay tribute, I want to offer my condolences to Bernie, to Jack, to Lucy and the family. In all the coverage of the loss of our friend Carl, one word and one word alone keeps getting repeated, and that is the word 'authentic'. Everything about Carlrang true. It was obvious to everyone who met him that Carl was in politics for the right reasons. Intellectually, instinctively, head and heart, he understood and he cared deeply about the people and places he represented. People radiated back that warmth to him, not only in Connah's Quay and north Wales butwherever he went.Ultimately, it was this authenticity that made Carl such a powerful campaigner.
The White Ribbon Campaign, which we will mark this month, is all about men challenging attitudes to violence against women. Carl was instrumental in promoting the campaign both as a man and as a Minister. He had seen the impact of domestic violence in his own community and he wanted to tackle that.As an authentic voice of working-class Welsh men—there's that word again—the impact of his support is hard to overstate.
In Government, he championed and skilfully steered through Wales's pioneering ending of violence against women legislation, and that was a huge achievement. This year's campaign will, of course, inevitably be coloured by our deep sadness and deep loss, but at the vigils and the events that we will attend, both here in the Assembly and across Wales, we will honour Carl's lasting legacy.

Rebecca Evans AC: Long before I had the huge privilege of serving as Carl's deputy in Government, I worked for him here as his researcher while he was still on the back benches. Even back then, Carl put his own unique and colourful stamp on everything he did, and our office was no different. I'm quietly confident that our office was the first, and to this date the only, office to boast a fluffy white lampshade, a purple lava lamp and a statue of Eeyore [Laughter.] Those years working for Carl were a joy, and I will always be grateful to him for his kindness and his generosity to both me and my husband Paul.
Working for Carl was every bit as fun as you would imagine it would be, but behind the jokes and behind the laughter was a deep seriousness about making life better for his constituents and a driving passion for social justice. I'll remember always how proud and excited I was when Carl was first promoted to his ministerial role. After a couple of weeks, I asked him, 'So, Carl, what's it like being in Government?' 'Ah mate', he said, 'I keep telling everyone to call me Carl, but everyone keeps on calling me Minister. I say, "Call me Carl"; they say, "Of course, Minister."' And that was Carl; he never got caught up in his own importance. He believed everyone was equal and he treated everyone the same.
In the 14 years I knew Carl I knew him as the big man with a big heart, and he wore that big heart on his sleeve. We all know the causes that he was passionate about and the things he loved: fairness, equality, social justice and kindness.
We're mourning now because we're sad we will never see our friend again, but in time our best tribute to him will be to finish the work he started.

Jane Hutt AC: In my tribute, I want to share my memories of Carl as a man who was witty, loving, lovable, deeply principled and a good friend, comrade and ministerial colleague. The impact he had as a Minister and Cabinet Secretary is on record and is shared here this afternoon, and I want to add my tribute from my experience.
Carl was appointed Minister for Social Justice and Local Government just before the coalition cuts started to impact on our budgets. He was wholly committed to local government, social justice, housing, regeneration and transport—all the briefs he held during those difficult times for public finances. As Finance Minister, I wanted to work with him to help him achieve what he wanted, and he wanted more money for social housing. It's that sort of ministerial partnership that is the most rewarding. I backed him; we got the money out when we could in difficult times, providing homes for those most in need. He said, 'Thank you, Jane.' I said, 'Thank you, Carl.'
I also want to say something about Carl as Chief Whip. Others have commented on this. He reigned—I think that's the expression. He reigned as Chief Whip, with humour, intelligence and tact. Being Chief Whip got into his blood so that I could always rely on him to back me up when I took on that role. He was always Chief Whip even when he was doing all these other ministerial roles. And if you recall, across this Chamber, he was always ready to shout 'Object' when he feared I wasn't on the ball—[Laughter.]—or my voice was a bit timid. That was, of course, at the end of a debate that we would be amending or opposing as a Government—a crucial role he played.
But I also bring memories shared by constituents in the Vale of Glamorgan. Kay Quinn reminded me of Carl's visit to Atal y Fro in Barry, showing his formidable leadership in tackling domestic abuse and violence against women. The response from BAWSO last week, from Mutale Merrill, was:
'We have lost a champion.'
He came to Barry to help move forward the regeneration that has made such an impact on our town, and he was warmly welcomed when he launched the housing refurbishment in Gibbonsdown that has transformed the lives of people living on that estate.
On the campaigning level, I remember walking across the cliffs at Nash Point with Carl on a freezing February day during the 2015 general election campaign, when he announced a moratorium on fracking as Minister for environment. He made that decision, and immediately wrote to all local authorities with his instructions—a Minister who meant what he said and delivered on it.
Thank you, Carl, as we remember you, beloved by your family, to whom we express our deepest sympathies today, this afternoon, loved and respected by us all here today, a man and a Minister who served Wales so well, greatly admired and greatly missed.

Simon Thomas AC: Can I first of all extend my deepest condolences to the family and friends of Carl Sargeant, and particularly those on the Assembly estate who knew him very well and with whom he was also friends? I do that on behalf of myself and my Plaid Cymru colleagues here, but also the Plaid Cymru colleagues who are no longer here who worked with him in the past as well.
I first came to know Carl, like many, I think, in 2007, when he became the Labour Chief Whip and I was appointed as the special adviser to the Plaid Cymruhalf of the coalition Government. The first thing I did after our carefully constructed coalition was realise that Carl was a bit of the grit in the oyster, because he was an extra member of Cabinet who shouldn't have been there. What was a Chief Whip doing attending Cabinet when we'd worked out carefully the numbers of Ministers and Deputy Ministers and the balance between the parties? 'Was this going to be a problem?', I wondered. Well, as we've already heard from Ann Jones, who, I think, had enough to do with Carl during that time, it wasn't a problem, because although Carl was completely comfortable and absolutely content in his Labour family, he could extend beyond that, not only to be personal friends with people, but to make political allies. We've already heard Bethan Jenkins's tribute—and she would, of course, have wanted to be here—but the fact that she and Carl, only two or three weeks ago, were standing on the streets selling copies of The Big Issue together shows you, I think, the way that he was able to transcend that real comfort within his Labour family, to also extend that to others who shared his values and who shared his objectives. So, he was not, in fact, a problem as a Government Chief Whip in that coalition Government; he was part of the mechanism that delivered effective Government. He was quite rightly then appointed, I think, as a Minister in future Governments.
But I also remember him at a personal level. I came originally from Aberdare; he came from Connah's Quay. I am told that he'd hardly been to Cardiff before he was elected here, yet he knew places in Cardiff I didn't know. [Laughter.] He knew where to go on a Wednesday night when we got away from here, and I'm very grateful, still, to him and want it to be known how much, as somebody fairly new to the Assembly at that stage, he was generous in his time with me. I saw him dancing in a way that I hadn't seen anyone dance before and singing karaoke, certainly. He was a far better singer and dancer than me—than most of us, I think. And he didn't have to be generous with his time to a Plaid Cymru special adviser. He was, and that shows the measure of the man.
I also think that he reminded me a great deal of the men in my family—working-class men, slightly older, perhaps, than Carl—the next generation, who'd really been left behind by deindustrialisation and who had suffered the consequences of that. Carl very much transcended that, and that authenticity that people have talked about, his ability to take that background, to apply it afresh in a completely new environment and to be true to himself in doing that is something that I think will remain with me.
He also had a Stakhanovite appetite, I think—and I mean that for legislation, of course, which has already been mentioned. But he also did it with a sense of humour. I crossed with him on several committees over the years and I sometimes wondered whether he was taking the legislation all that seriously, actually, so much was the humour that he broughtto it. But, of course, this was part of the way that he oiled the wheels of taking legislation through. He was very serious about what he was achieving, and his ability to have passed the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is, I think, one of the crowning achievements of any legislature, and he took it through here and did that work for and on behalf of all of us.
Now, I live on a council estate myself—an adopted one; it's not the one I was born in. It's the one in Penparcau in Aberystwyth, and Carl was due in a fortnight's time to come and open our latest community facility. It's a measure of his commitment that he had constantly asked me about the development of that facility, that he'd been open about how that community was coming together post Communities First, to work for the poorest in that community. He showed as much care, attention and questioning about a small community outside Aberystwyth as he did for the community he represented, and I think that stands as a testament to his contribution.

John Griffiths AC: I first met Carl when he was elected to the Assembly in 2003, and as we've heard, he took great pride in representing his constituency, and as some here, I think, will remember, when local issues arose, he was sometimes keen to differentiate himself from the regional AMs for north Wales who, of course, covered the whole of the area. And often, he would preface his contributions in the Chamber with, 'As the directly-elected Member for Alyn and Deeside', before going on to make a point or ask a question. I think that struck many of us, in terms of Carl being intent on making an impact and a significant contribution here in the Assembly right from the very beginning, which, of course, he certainly did. Making that transition that others have spoken about from shop-floor factory work and town council to Assembly Member and Welsh Government Cabinet, and making that transition with apparent ease—when you start thinking about that, that's quite a phenomenon.
But we also know that when Carl did arrivein Government he was in no way content to relax and reflect upon that journey. He was absolutely determined to make lives better for people in Wales through the opportunity he had in Government. I think we would all say that he showed real ability, commitment and passion to make that difference for people, in developing and implementing policy and in the legislation—the future generations Act, the legislation on homelessness, the legislation on domestic abuse and others. And I think it was always clear that Carl was always concerned with actually doing things. It wasn't about holding a position, it was about using that position and doing meaningful things for social justice for our communitiesand people here in Wales.
I certainly count Carl as a great colleague and friend. As Assembly Members and serving in the Cabinet together, he was always very easy to work with, and always had time to talk and discuss. As a Minister taking forward cross-cutting policy, cross-portfolio policy, it wasn't always easy to work jointly with other members of the Government, but when you had that task and you had to meet Carl, you knew that you would always get constructive engagement, and I think that's what was Carl was about. It wasn't about any sort of personal rivalries, it was about getting things done, getting things done jointly and working together.
Most recently, as Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, myself and the committee worked co-operatively with him, in his Cabinet Secretary for communities role, on our reports on scrutiny, domestic violence, asylum seekers and refugees, Communities First and fire safety, and on pieces of legislation. And true to form, I think what we had from Carl was exactly what we would have expected: he was ready to listen and compromise, but also to stand firm if convinced of the merits or otherwise of a particular proposal or suggestion.
As we've heard, everyone loves a character, and Carl certainly was a character. He was invariably full of fun and warmth, and that was on full display when, together with other Labour AM friendsand partners, we travelled north for Carl's fortieth birthday party at Connah's Quay Labour Club—with karaoke, of course. It was just so clear there, so plain to see, how knitted into his community Carl was, how much he was a part of that community, and how much he was respected and valued—and, of course, respected across the political parties and loved by so many in and outside the Assembly: family and friends, his community, Labour colleagues here, throughout the party and movement in Wales and beyond, and in groups and organisations he worked with as a Minister. Our wonderful catering staff and general staff here in the Assembly I know had a very soft spot for Carl, and, as Lesley said, he was a particular favourite of the Welsh Government drivers who, as Lesley also said, I know have many stories to tell.
It is very difficult to accept that Carl will not be around anymore—in this Chamber, at our committees, in the Assembly, in his Alyn and Deeside constituency. He is a great loss to us all, but, of course, most of all, to Bernie, to Jack, to Lucy, to Carl's parents, and our thoughts are very much with them at this time and in the time to come.

Nick Ramsay AC: I remember the first time I met Carl: back in 2003 in a lift. He was newly elected, in a lift in Tŷ Hywel, and he greeted me with, 'Hi, comrade'. Following that, we became good friends. He never ceased to call me 'comrade' or 'mate', as was his way.
We know that politics can be a cold business, but, in contrast, friendships go to the heart of what it is to be human, and Carl was one of the most human souls I've ever met. He was unique—a one-off. He was friendly, warm, engaging, supportive. He was always supportive when you needed help. He was a sensitive man, and he had turned his hands to most things in his full life, including DJing, and as the First Minister said, he couldn't be beaten at karaoke. He loved music, particularly ABBA and, of course, his beloved Motown. When Billy Ocean's last world tour brought him to Cardiff, Carl was, of course, there at the Motorpoint Arena Cardiff that night, bopping along with the best of them. I will never be able to listen to 'Red Light Spells Danger'in the same light again.
The last time Jen and I properly caught up with Carl was after our wedding, in the bar of the Hilton hotel, where we were staying that evening. Carl had said he would try and see us before the end of the day, and sure to his words, he and his family appeared at the hotel entrance at around midnight. The only problem was that the hotel staff mistook him for a bouncer and wouldn't let him in without some extensive negotiating worthy of the Brexit talks. He did eventually talk his way in.
Carl developed a reputation as a bit of a fixer, so much so that the phrase, 'Draft the Sarge', has passed into common usage in Cardiff Bay. When Jen was once accused by an overzealous guard on Arriva Trains of travelling without a ticket, for some reason I will not go into, it was Carl who she turned to and helped sort it out. She thanked him for that, and I know that many other people were helped by him personally in their own ways.He was not always so helpful to me. I was once approached by a former mayor of Usk with an ambition to restyle his position as the town's portreeve—a small change but one thatrequired a change to the law. I dutifully took the small request to Carl, who looked absolutely baffled as to why I would bother him with something so meaningless. 'No, boss', was the short response. I did try again, a short time later, and he said, 'No, boss' even quicker than the first time. [Laughter.] He knew that politics was about priorities and time was short.
Carl has now left us, but we are still here to carry on with the campaigns close to his heart and to enact the change that he so desired. As Ken Skates said earlier, let us look again at the way we treat one another as human beings, and let this be Carl's legacy. Farewell, comrade, and thank you for the music.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: As someone who represented the north-west of north Wales I was delighted when Carl appeared to represent the north-east of north Wales,because one of the great tricks, as colleagues will know, in the north of Wales, is getting us all to work together. But if there was ever a problem, the Sarge would solve it.
We had a marvellous time on the north Wales express train, and we must keep that train running, if only in celebration of Carl's great life as a politician on that train. He would come on, occasionally it wouldbe the breakfast train—often Lesley wouldbe there as well—and sometimes the supper train, and of course Carl on the supper train was, I'm not saying it was a travelling circus, but it was certainly a travelling lounge, where everyone on the train, in that business class that we have there, was wanting to speak with Carl and express their points of view. And the staff, equally, were always delighted to see Carl join us. And it was on that train that he made the greatest contribution to my life, and to the people I represent.
Mention has been made of what he did for the communities of Wales, for the urbancommunities, but I want to celebrate and thank him for what he did for the environment of Wales, and in particular for the designated landscapes, because he understood, as someone who was a proper north Walian, who loved both the industrial areas, and the rural areas and the national parks, and the areas of outstandingnatural beauty, that it was importantthat these areas should learn to live together and share their delight. And this was part of his putting legislation into action, because this was the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and the Environment (Wales) Act 2015, actually put to work. And Lesley, of course, took on that work on future landscapes, and it has now happened.
I was approached by someone with great excitement a few months ago, saying 'Were you at that meeting in Aberystwyth?' And I said, 'What meeting was I supposed to be at in Aberystwyth?' And they said, 'Well, for the first time ever, the national parks and the areas of outstanding natural beautywere in the same room.' And that was down to Carl.
This morning, at our cathedral of Llandaff, during our Welsh language eucharistfor St Dyfrig's Day, the canon prayed for this National Assembly, for the Government of Wales, and for you as a family. Let it be known to you that you will be in our prayers and our thanks for the life of Carl as long as this institution exists.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Carl Sargeant, Assembly Member for Alyn and Deeside was my friend, is my friend, and will forever be my friend. No words are sad enough to express his loss. To Bernie, Carl's wife, and to Jack and Lucy, his son and daughter, I want you to know that you do not walk alone. There are many Members of this National Assembly for Wales who loved and respected Carl. As a proud feminist, I want it stated on the record that no other Assembly Member, in the two decades of Welsh devolution, has been as passionate to champion the progress of women's and children's rights and causes through legislationthan Carl Sargeant. One of Wales's prominent reporters, Martin Shipton, noted that, as Minister for social justice, he becameknown as champion of equality and women's rights and backed a successionof initiatives aimed at tackling domestic violence.
Carl, a friend to me, but also a friend to the people that I represent, the people of Islwyn. Carl was the genuine article; an authentic, working-class politician, he did speak the language of the man and woman on thestreet. And when he visited Islwyn, the affection was obvious. His exuberance and sheer decency was evident to all that met him. Carl was truly the antithesis of the polished, plastic politician. And as a proud candidate for Islwyn, I wondered, when I met him for the first time, what on earth had arrived when I saw him. I was greeted by a large man, in a dark grey jumper with a hole in it, that had seen better days. Later, I realised that he and his close colleague Ken Skates had been working tirelessly, touring the lengthand breadth of our country together, fighting for the next Labour Government. The genuine article.
And in May 2016, when I became an AM, nobody was more accommodating, friendly and keen to make sure that I settled into life in the Senedd than Carl. He was a gifted negotiator and communicator. He was not conceited or proud, but a humble man, generous in spirit, and—rare in politics—Carl did bring a smile into the room that would often end in laughter, whatever important issues he was progressing.
I know my Labour predecessors, Islwyn Assembly Members, Irene James and Gwyn Price, stand with me and the people of Islwyn in regarding Carl Sargeant as a true comrade. We grieve for him today. And it is almost unbearable to believe that he died not knowing how much we loved and respected him, and for that I am truly sad.
Carl was a man of all occasions: the people's view of what a politician should be, not just a people's person, but the people's politician; asocialist, who never forgot his roots, or his community that he so loved.
Carl, I counted you as my friend, and this place will never for me be the same without your presence. Your progressive and innovative legislative legacy, and your memory, will remain to inspire and motivate us all to make a better Wales, a better society. And, at this bleakest of times, I remember the words of Louise Haskins:
'Go out into the darkness and put your hand into the Hand of God. That shall be to you better than light and safer than a known way.'
You are not alone; we stand with you. And, Carl, we deeply mourn your passing. Diolch.

Darren Millar AC: Last week was a very devastating week, I think, for Welsh politics. In the most tragic of circumstances, a family lost a dedicated husband and father, Alyn and Deeside, and north Wales, lost a very hard-working and effective Assembly Member, and I, along with many others in this Chamber, lost a very kind and gentle friend.
I can remember arriving in the Senedd for the first time, after my election back in 2007, and taking my seat in the Senedd. And, looking across at the Labour benches, I clocked Carl, and I immediately thought that he would be better suited to being a nightclub door attendant in Rhyl, than he would be a politician. But, you know, those first impressions couldn't have been much wronger. He was an absolutely stunning politician. He was a wonderful human being, and, as we've already learned this afternoon, his record was one of delivery—yes, for the Welsh Government, but also for the Labour Party, for his constituents, and for the things that he was personally very passionate about. And while he cut a very unorthodox-looking figure, for a politician, underneath the very tough exterior he had a very kind heart that was always seeking to fight for the underdog, whoever those underdogs were.
Remembrance Sunday has just passed, and it reminded me not just of the sacrifice of the fallen, but also of what a fantastic champion the armed forces community and veterans across Wales had in Carl Sargeant, holding that portfolio, representing their views around the Cabinet table, and across the country. And, of course, he wasn't just a friend to the armed forces, he was a tremendous friend of faith communities as well, across Wales. I know how greatly faith communities, faith groups—of all religions—appreciated his work and engagement through the faith communities forum.
And, of course, Carl had an infectious smile, and boy could he make me laugh. As a fellow north Walian, he reached out to me in friendship, particularly in my early days in the Assembly, and I can remember him asking me one day, 'You alright, boss? How are you settling in?' So, I told him I'd found anapartment in the bay, and was busy setting it up, and theapartment happened to be in the same complex as Carl's apartment. 'I've got a spare mattress if you want it', he said, 'I'll bring it round later.' And then he said this: 'It'll be no good for you—you're too fat.' He said, 'But it'll be alright for your kids.'
And there was another occasion, you know, during an Assembly recess, I'd brought the family down to Cardiff. And I took them swimming one morning, in the complex where theapartment was. Imagine my surprise when, that afternoon, I received a text message from Carl. It simply said this: 'You look terrible in those swimming trunks.' Unbeknown to me, he'd been peering through the window while I was in the pool. You know, he was a cheeky flamer, but I loved him all the more for it.
And then there were the chats. We'd have chats, sometimes in the tearoom, sometimes in the corridor, sometimes in Mischief's or The Packet—all about family life. He absolutely adored his family.He spoke of them often and he was extraordinarily proud of them. I want to say this to Bernie, to Lucy and to Jack today: thank you so much for sharing Carl with us, we loved him dearly and we're going to miss him greatly.

Mick Antoniw AC: I just wanted to say a few words, because he was well known in the Pontypridd, Rhondda Cynon Taf and Taff Ely area, and it was a tribute to Carl that, as a proud north Walian, the people of Pontypridd and Taff Ely were never able to hold that against him.
He was down in my constituency, in Rhydyfelin, only a couple of weeks ago on a childcare issue, and we were there, we were lined up, the tv cameras were there and he was going to make an announcement. I'd put a clean shirt on and was suited and we were all there waiting, and then this car pulls up and this scruffy guy gets out, scruffy hair, unshaven, dirty jumper on and it was Carl, and I thought, 'My God. Carl, what's happened?' He said, 'Oh, I've just been selling The Big Issue for a couple of hours. I've still got a couple to sell later on.' And then we had this great fear that we were going to have the announcement and Carl would then suddenly start selling everyone The Big Issue.
One of the first people to contact me after the tragic news came out was the leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council. It is a tribute just how many people respected and admired Carl, knew of him and his work and valued the contribution he'd made to our communities. So, the only comment I really want to make, on top of everything that's been said, is that the contribution you made in the Pontypridd and Taff Ely area is well recognised and will not be forgotten.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'm a relative latecomerto Carl's fan club. I first met Carl as a candidate in 2011, when he came to support my campaign for the redevelopment of a dismal shoppingcentre that was well past its sell-by date. Carl was a fantastic campaigner. He was also a great problem solver, as others have said. Julie Morgan and I will be forever grateful to Carl for negotiating a solution to the 15-year campaign to save Llanishen reservoir. The reservoir had been drained in a final act of corporate vandalism by Western Power Distribution, who wanted to concrete it over with luxury housing, but it was obvious that the new owners, CELSA Group, had neither the money nor the know-how to reinstate the reservoir. So, Carl stepped up and managed to persuade Dŵr Cymru to take it over, and thanks to Carl the reservoir will be refilled and safeguarded for future generations.
It was my privilege to work very closely with Carl over the last four years on all of the legislation that he will be remembered for. As the First Minister has already said, it is the path-breaking wellbeing of future generations Act for which Carl will be remembered most. I do recall that when he was first appointed as the Minister for Natural Resources it's fair to say he was not an enthusiast, because he wondered whether it would have any impact beyond a piece of window dressing and Carl wasn't interested in laws that sit on the shelf gathering dust. He wanted everything he did to make a difference. However, once the Cabinet had persuaded him that they were serious about this groundbreaking Bill, he entered into it with all the gusto and enthusiasm that he'd previously applied to the cause of domestic violence. What he created was a Bill that was backed up by public support and that everyone could understand. Indeed, the programme for government talks about the future generations Act being enshrined in law, our commitment to develop policy and making decisions that will maximise our impact on the long-term good of our country, and Carl should always be remembered for that. He was indeed a brilliant Minister to work with, because he listened. He deliberated on what backbenchers had to say and if he didn't have the answer immediately to hand, I can hear him saying, 'I'll come back to you on that' and he always did.
Private rented tenants can thank Carl for the registration of landlords, so they know how to get hold of their landlord in an emergency. He'd already set in motion the legislation to abolish letting agency fees, which cause so many private tenants so much financial grief. And,on 24 October,the last time that Carl introduced any ministerial initiatives, Carl announced that there'd been so many quality applications for his innovative housing programme that he'd managed to persuade the Cabinet Secretary for Finance to nearly double the capital funds to deliver low-carbon quality homes fit for the twenty-first century.Carl was a true leader, an exemplary representative of Alyn and Deeside, and an outstanding Minister.
The enduring image I want to treasure of Carl is Carl in a pink feather boa and enormous pink-framed glasses posing with his good friend and neighbouring constituency AM Lesley Griffiths. He deliberately chose the most outrageous props available as he wasn't scared to be laughed at in aid of a good cause, and he wanted you to laugh with him in support of Wear it Pink breast cancer awareness. He created so much laughter in our lives, and touched people who worked in every aspect of the Assembly's work.But our loss is as nothing compared to the pain suffered by his family and his community.

Thank you all for your warm and sincere contributions reflecting the tremendous affection and respect felt towards Carl Sargeant across this Chamber. There are others of you who'd have liked to speak this afternoon, but I've not been able to call all. I'll make sure that the list of speakers for this afternoon is shared with the family.
Carl's achievements as both Minister and Assembly Member were many, and, as such, his legacy will continue to touch the lives of many people across the nation for years to come. We come to this Assembly from many and varied backgrounds, representing every community in Wales. Sometimes this place can change us. It didn't change Carl Sargeant. He remained true to his community and his background. The Carl I first met in 2003 was the same Carl in this Chamber only two weeks ago. He influenced us, not the other way round, and his constituents and his causes had no finer champion in this place.
I now bring this session to a close. The bell will be rung five minutes before we reconvene. I ask you to leave this Chamber in silence and to do so in fond and lasting memory of our friend, our comrade, ein cyfaill, Carl Sargeant.

Plenary was suspended at 13:47.
The Assembly reconvened at 14:00, with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

2. Questions to the First Minister

I call the Assembly to order. The item on our agenda is questions to the First Minister. The first question, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Public Procurement Priorities

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's public procurement priorities? OAQ51299

Carwyn Jones AC: Procurement policy is focused on meeting the challenge of austerity whilst maximising opportunity for Welsh business and creating sustainable jobs as we exit the EU.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. First Minister, as you are aware, the number of people waiting more than a year for surgery in Wales has increased this year by 400 per cent. Now, in order to get those lists down, health boards are forcedto procure some services and health treatments outside Wales. In my own health board, I am aware of several referrals to the Priory clinic for those wishing to access vital mental health services and treatments. To reduce the waiting lists for operations that cannot be performedin good time in Wales, our NHS is now spending £255 million procuring that treatment for people outside of Wales in one year, and the total number of patients is 46,000 patients.
First Minister, we've had devolution now for 20 yearsand still we're having to procure much-needed health services outside of Wales. What steps will you be taking to ensure that our patients receive the treatmentthey require in good time and, most importantly, in their own locality and more available than it is currently?

Carwyn Jones AC: I do know that her party has expressed very strong views—views that I agree with—that people should not be prevented from accessing treatmentacross the border. I think it's important that, where treatmentis available, people should have access to it. We should not seek to create a situation where we try to make available all treatmentin Wales. There will be some specialist treatmentthat will have to be accessed from bigger cities. Where we can provide treatment, we will. One example of that is the sub-regional neonatal intensive care centre, where the original recommendationwas to move the service out of Wales. I commissioned a review and, as a result of that review, it was possible then to move ahead with theSuRNICC. So, where we can, we will. But, we shouldn't be afraid of procuring services outside of Walesif that's what patients need.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, how does the Welsh Governmentplan to use procurement levers in the context of the Valleys taskforce delivery plan to create jobs and boost prosperity in the northern Valleys?

Carwyn Jones AC: The Valleys taskforce action plan commitsus to using public procurement innovatively, so that we can exploit the job creation potential from the major infrastructureinvestments that we have in Wales. For example, programmes like the south Walesmetro, major road schemes like the M4, and the ongoing work to dual the A465 will embed a community-benefit approach to ensure that outcomes are closely monitoredso that communities get the maximum benefit from the schemesthat are moving forward in their areas.

Austerity Programme

Rhianon Passmore AC: 2. What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact that the UK Government's austerity programme has had in Wales? OAQ51268

Carwyn Jones AC: With over £1 billion less to spend on public services in Wales, clearly there is a great deal of pressure. Of course, we have called on the UK Government to end this period of austerity and that, I hope, is a message that will be heard by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the end of this month.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, First Minister. The UK Tory Government's Chancellor, PhilipHammond, will deliver his budget on 22 November in the House of Commons chamber. Recently, the Welsh and Scottish finance Ministers jointly met with Treasury officials at the finance quadrilateral meeting in London. At that meeting, the Welsh and Scottish finance Ministers delivered a clear and unambiguous call for the UK Tory Government to set out plans to lift the public sector pay cap and reverse the planned further £3.5 billion of unallocated cuts in expenditure in 2019-20. What message does the First Ministerhave for the Chancellor of the Exchequer in advance of the budget for the need for the Tory Government to abandon its ideological obsession with austerity, considering the Welsh Government has seen its budget cut by 7 per cent in real terms since 2010?

Carwyn Jones AC: First of all, it's hugely important that the £3.5 billion of unallocated cuts are disposed of, to make sure that we are able to be in a position where we do not bear the extent of those cuts. Secondly, it's hugely important now, I believe, for the economy to have more money pumped into it, to make sure there's more money for investment, to make sure that jobscan be created as a result, and, of course, to enable the Welsh Government and indeed the Scottish Government to be able to invest in the infrastructure that Wales and Scotland need.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, you described your approach to the public finances on 23 April, when you were asked,
'The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said £500bn more borrowing is in order to give the economy a bit of a boost—you’d go along with that then would you?'
You answered, 'Yes, I would'. Do you still think borrowing £500 billion—10 times the current UK deficit—would be sensible, and how would it be repaid?

Carwyn Jones AC: I do believe that it's hugely important that, at a time when borrowing has never been, well, not quite as cheap as it was a week or so ago—but borrowing is historically cheap—it is reasonable and responsible for Governments to borrow money in order to pump that money into the economy. He will disagree; he's a monetarist, I'm sure. I'm not; I adhere to Keynesianism and I take the view that now is the time for Government to borrow that money, inject the money into the economy, create the jobs that we need, and then, of course, create the tax receipts that will pay that loan back.

Adam Price AC: If that is the case—and I agree with you, First Minister, because of the historic low interest rates that we're still facing, notwithstanding the recent decision to have a slight increase—why aren't we borrowing at the full amount available to us? I mean, we are not actually even drawing down over the next three financial years the full £425 million that we could borrow. We're £50 million short of that, and we could be doing more through the mutual investment model as well. Why aren't we using the borrowing powers that we have to the full effect?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the answer to that is that we are. We have to balance, of course, the power we have to borrow money against the need to pay that money back and the pressures that will be on the revenue budget in years to come. We're moving ahead with the mutual investment model, as the Member has said, and we will explore all models of prudentfinancial borrowing in order to deliver for the people of Wales.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, recently, we've had allegations put by a former cabinet Minister and by a senior special adviser that, in the last Assembly Government that you were First Minister to, there was bullying, mind games, favouritism, deliberate personal undermining, and that that culture was allowed to flourish unchecked. Also, the special adviser cited the behaviour as being 'pure poison'. Could I ask you to comment on those allegations, First Minister, as, if they are correct, then that is no way to run a Government, is it?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, first of all, can I say that I've heard the allegations of bullying by Leighton Andrews? I've listened to what he has to say. I heard what Steve Jones had to say, and what I will say is this: if people wish to come forward to me and explain things to me about their experience, then I'm more than willing for that to happen and they can contact me either through my office or through the Permanent Secretary.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, the allegations are levelled very much at your office, and the allegations, or the people making the allegations, state quite clearly that they raised these allegations with you on numerous occasions and just gave up. They just gave up; they believed that they weren't being taken seriously and these issues were not being addressed. Indeed, in an Assembly written question to my colleague Darren Millar, who asked a question back in October/November 2014, you actually responded to him by saying that no allegations had been made. How can people have confidence that if they do choose to raise these serious concerns with you that they will be taken seriously? And in the absence of them having that confidence, would you commit to referring these allegations for investigation by an independent third party so that we can fully understand whether they are serious allegations that stack up, with action required, or that they have no substance and can be discarded?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think it's hugely important that, where people have concerns, they're able to express those concerns through a confidential process. I don't think doing it in the public domain is the way to do these things, and I invite people to come forward with any concerns that they might have and contact my office or contact the Permanent Secretary so that I can make an assessment of what was said to be happening at that time.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Is it fair to say, though, First Minister, that these allegations were raised with you at the time? Because both individuals—senior individuals within the Government—are categorical in their allegations that they were raised on numerous occasionswith you, not just on one-off occasions, but they were raised on numerous occasions with you, and indeed that they were levelled at your office, they were. They weren't levelled at the wider Government structure—they were levelled at the office of the First Minister. So, can you confirm that, unlike the answer you gave Darren Millar back in 2014, these allegations were raised with you and that you did investigate them atthat time?And, asI said, if they do stack up, will you commit to referring them to an independent personso that they can be looked into and, actually, these actions addressed?

Carwyn Jones AC: What I can say is that any issues that were brought to my attention at that time were dealt with. That's the answer that was given—and that answer is correct—back in 2014. If, however, there are other issues that people want to bring forward, then they are welcome to do so. But he asked me a direct question: were any issues raised with me dealt with? The answer to that is: yes, they were dealt with.

Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm sure the First Minister will have seen this morning, on WalesOnline, that Martin Shipton has written a piece about the subject that the leader of the opposition has raised. He said that he was invited to a dinner in late 2014 at a friend's home, where Carl Sargeant and other senior Welsh Labour figures gave him a disturbing insight into an aspect of the Welsh Government he wasn't familiar with. He said that he was shocked to hear from Carl and others of the poisonous atmosphere that existed at the heart of the Welsh Government, and claims of instances of undermining and petty sniping that went on—that you had been told of these problems but hadn't done anything about them. So, does that not fly in the face of what you've just said to the leader of the opposition?

Carwyn Jones AC: I cannot possibly comment on issues that I have no knowledge of, but if the journalist involved or others want to come forward and share what they've said, unknown to me, with me, I'd be more than happy to listen to them.

Neil Hamilton AC: I'm sure the First Minister will agree that, out of the tragedy of the last few days, it's important that we should learn lessons arising out of Carl Sargeant's dismissal and the processes that were involved in that. The First Minister, as abarrister experienced in criminal law and procedure, said that he acted 'by the book'. Now, Carl Sargeant was given no opportunity toanswer to him the allegations that have been made, because no details were given. That flies in the face ofone of the most fundamental principles of natural justice—to hear the other side of the argument before somebody is disadvantaged. Also, because the sacking was inevitably public, and the fact that allegations, although unstated, had been made of sexual impropriety, the publicity generated thereby was inevitably prejudicial, which again imperils the presumption of innocence. So, if the First Minister acted by the book in this particular instance, does he now think that that book should be thrown away and replaced by another one that is informed by principles of fairness?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think there are two things here: first of all, with the independent inquiry and with the inquest, I think it's hugely important that the whole story is told at once and not bits. So, I'm not able to comment on various things that have been said—I don't think it's right for anybody. I think it's hugely important that the whole story is there for all to see, rather than it come out in bits and pieces—I don't think that would be the right process at all.
Secondly, do I think there are lessons for all parties to learn? There may be. I think it's important that we, as political parties, do that. Politics is a very difficult business, we know that. People can be sacked from cabinets, they can be put into cabinets, without any reason. People can go to an election count and they can find themselves in a job, and then find themselves out of a job, while a cheering crowd applauds the fact that they're not in a job. It is, in that sense, a very brutal business. But one of the things that struck me earlier on today is that perhaps, as parties, we should consider how to take not the edge, not the need for forensic examination, not the debate, not the scrutiny, out of politics, but to see how we can make it less brutal than it is. I think that that's something that, as all parties, we may want to consider in the future.

Neil Hamilton AC: I, of course, have personal experience of being sacked, and I can confirm it's not pleasant, but nobody who is in politics can actually complain with any justice about being sacked, because there's no justice about appointments in the first place. But the point in this particular instance was that the sacking was associated with the allegations that have been made against him.
There is another way in which the First Minister could have dealt with this, because Carl Sargeant, as a Minister of the Crown, was governed by the ministerial code of conduct as well, which says that:
'Ministers of the Crown are expected to behave in a principled way that upholds the highest standards of propriety.'
And Damian Green, the First Secretary of State, has been made the subject of allegations of sexual impropriety, and those are being investigated not by an internal party investigation, but by Sue Gray, who is the director general of the civil service propriety and ethics team. By contrast, the route that the First Minister chose was to send his special adviser to speak to the complainants. The solicitors now acting for Carl Sargeant's family say that to appoint a political activist in these circumstances, with no special expertise in undertaking a preliminary disciplinary investigation, actually prejudices the outcome of this process, and is actually as unfair to those who are making the allegations as to those who are subject to them. Because if there are uncertainties now about the credibility of any evidence that is caused by that, because, as the solicitors for Carl Sargeant's family have said, there's a real possibility that the evidence of witnesses is being manipulated and because numerous conversations with witnesses by the First Minister's office creates uncertainty about that credibility, it really undermines the whole process for everybody that's involved in it. So, would it not be better in future for these things to be examined independently of the political process itself?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think we must be very careful about suggesting—. The words that he has used—. 'A real possibility of manipulation' is a very, very serious suggestion and would need some very strong evidence to back it up. The family have asked for there to be an independent inquiry. I have ensured that steps are now moving ahead for that independent inquiry to move forward. It would not be right for the family if I were to go into the detail of events because it would seem convenient to do so for me—I'mnot prepared to do that—rather than allow the inquiry to take its full course and then, of course, for all events to be examined at that time. I realise that there are some who think me evasive as a result of saying that, but I do think it's hugely important that all this is examined. I've said that this is important. I understand that. It's important for the family. But it's important that all this is examined and a full picture presented at the right time. I think the family is owed that.

Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, I've already set out my view over the weekend regarding the difficult situation facing the Welsh Government and, of course, Welsh politics as a whole. Plaid Cymru is not prepared to make premature statements about anyone's political future; the issues have not yet been dealt with and the decisions that were made have not yet been examined. We do believe that questions must be answered and we support and called for the independent inquiry. With the inquest having already begun, can you confirm the timescale for the independent inquiry into the circumstances leading up to Carl Sargeant's death?

Carwyn Jones AC: The first thing to do, of course, is for a QC to be appointed, for the terms of reference to be set, and then, of course, it's entirely a matter for the QC, who will act at an arm's length. That process will need now to proceed as quickly as possible. I did notice one of the comments the coroner made yesterday was that—. He seemed to indicate that the inquiry would influence one of the outcomes of his inquest. We need to clarify exactly what that means, whether he wants the inquiry to conclude before the inquest or not. I think that's something that needs to be clarified, but, from my perspective, I want to make sure that matters now proceed as swiftly as possible.

Leanne Wood AC: And I think we can take it, First Minister, that once that information becomes available you'd be prepared to share it with the Assembly as well. Following last week, there are questions over how we can ensure that disclosures are dealt with in a way that's fair to everyone involved. Now, I've found myself asking: how do we as political parties have the resources and the trained personnel to deal with allegations and to operate in a transparent way, or could they be dealt with in a more independent way in the future? An independent and neutral authority might be more trusted, more impartial, more transparent than political parties are able to be.
Now, the office of the Standards Commissioner may not have the resources at present to deal with disclosures of harassmentor other misconduct in full. There's also a question about sanctions—what kind of sanctions could be placed on people. Do you believe that the office of the Standards Commissioner could be equipped with better resources,and that they should also look at meaningful sanctions to deal with such disclosures?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think the leader of Plaid Cymru has raised a hugely important point and that is: how can we create a complaints process that's different—not weaker, but different—a complaints process that supports all parties? We have to be honest: we are a small country and we are all small parties. I think there is great merit in exploring, with the Presiding Officer, how the Standards Commissioner might change roles from the current role. I think that is something that useful discussion could be had on amongst the parties.

Leanne Wood AC: First Minister, we know that sexual harassmentoccurs elsewhere in politics and in other industries as well. In fact, we can say that it exists in almost every walk of life. It remains a problem experienced by many people—not exclusively, but mainly, women. And it remains an issue that needs to be tackled.One point we need to consider—all of us, I think—is how we can create the conditions and the culture for those who have experienced sexual harassmentto be able to make disclosures safely in the future.Looking beyond the issue of disclosures and anonymity, can you tell us what steps could be taken to ensure that attitudes change, so that harassmentcan be prevented from taking place in the first place?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think that is a question for all parties, working together, to resolve. We have to create a situation where complainants don't feel they're not able to come forward. We have to create a system—yes, we want to make sure that every system is fair; everybody understands that. From my perspective, I want to make sure that, working together as political parties, we can create the correct atmosphere and also to make sure, of course, that we are able to ensure that the processes—if there are new processes followed in the future, that they apply to all parties equally.
There are manyquestions, I think, that will be asked. The leader of Plaid Cymru is absolutelyright to say that there are bound to be questions. I accept that, and those are questions that people want the answers to, and I accept that as well. I think, as political parties, we just need to see whether there is a way of changing the way that the Assembly deals with these issues and those are conversations we may well need to have over the next few weeks.

Question 3—Jenny Rathbone.

Child Poverty

Jenny Rathbone AC: 3. How will the Welsh Government deal with the anticipated spike in child poverty in Wales as a result of changes to welfare benefits? OAQ51298

Carwyn Jones AC: I'm concerned about the significant projected increase in child poverty in Wales, driven by the UK Government’s planned tax and benefits changes. Our child poverty strategy does set out objectives for tackling child poverty and we're taking action to ensure every child has the best start in life.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The Institute for Fiscal Studies has calculated that in Wales we will see a spike of 7 per cent in the rate of increase in child poverty, which obviously is statistically huge. We know that those on working-age benefits are seeing a real cut in the amount of money they get to live off. What do you think can be done to mitigate the policies of the UK Government, which obviously are not of our making, but what can we in Wales do to try and mitigate the appallingimpact that this is likely to have on children in this situation?

Carwyn Jones AC: Let me give my colleague a number of ways in which we are dealing with that issue. Early implementationof the childcare offer is taking place in seven local authorities. That started in September, delivering childcare to 4,725 children. For 2017-18, we've invested over £38 million in the FamiliesFirst programme, more than £76 million in Flying Start. We have allocated a budget of £400,000 for 2017-18 for Positive Parenting. Communities for Work, for example, has engaged with 11,000 participants, with 3,000 entering into employment. Those are just some examples of what we are doing in order to alleviate child poverty in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. We know that the figures show that, in general, children growing up in working households do better in school and adult life. How do you respond to concern expressed since the recent publication of the Office of National Statistics figures for 2016, showing that the number of children living in long-term workless households fell by 92,000 across the UK last year—down in Scotland, Northern Irelandand England, and it's actually down by 0.5 million since 2010—but actually increased in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think, first of all, if we look at our figures, historically we have seen an increase in the rate of employment in Wales and a decrease in the rate of unemployment, but it's not sufficient simply to look at whether people are in work or not, because we have to look beyond that and understand what people are earning. We used to say that if people found a job then that was a route out of poverty, yet we know that in-work poverty is one of the scourges that we have. We know—we've heard stories of nurses having to use foodbanks. That's why it's so important, I believe, now, for there to be a loosening of the bonds of austerity by the UK Government, for money to be made available for the devolved Governments to make sure that we can look now to improve the incomes of our public sector workers, many of whom, of course, have struggled in terms of their pay rises for some years.

Enterprise Zones

David Rees AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the future role of enterprise zones in Wales? OAQ51283

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. The enterprise zone programme has a strong track record of delivery with over 10,000 jobs having been supported across the eight zones in Wales, and we do remain committed to supporting the programme, which has served as a catalyst for development and investment.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. In July, your Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure made a statement on enterprise zones in which he stated that the enterprise zone programme,
'continues to contribute to the Welsh Government’s objectives in our Programme for Government',
and I fully support that. Last month, in a letter to me, he stated that the strategy for the Port Talbot waterfront enterprise zone—and I quote—
'is based around established employment sites in the area which have significant capacity for supporting further business investment.'
He goes on to say that the Welsh Government is
'continuing to build on the world class advanced manufacturing skills in the area to create jobs and employment.'
Now, I fully support that ambition and the direction of economic growth for Port Talbot and want to see it come to fruition, particularly as the long-term future of the steelworks is still unclear without having the detail yet for thatThyssenKrupp/Tata joint venture and with the relining of blast furnace No. 5 not being made quite specific yet. But First Minister, as you know, the enterprise zone in Port Talbot actually includes Baglan industrial park with its associated covenant, which says it's to be used for industrial purposes. Therefore, can I ask you to listen not just to my voice but to the voices of over 8,500 of my constituents and reject approaches by the Ministry of Justice to use that land for a prison and instead stick to the Welsh Government's plans to use all the land within the enterprise zone to support business investment that delivers economic growth and job creation based upon the skills base within Port Talbot? I can tell you a prison will not do that.

Carwyn Jones AC: My friend the Member for Aberavon has been a staunch advocate for the views—I have seen them—of many in his constituency who oppose the prison. What I can say to him is that, as a Government, we have written a letter to the Ministry of Justice. We have sought urgent clarification in terms of a number of questions that we have asked. I've not yet seen a response, but the response to that letter will inform our further consideration in terms of how the land might be used.

Russell George AC: First Minister, since the creation of the Ebbw Vale enterprise zone, £94.6 million has been spent to create, safeguard or assist just 390 jobs. Those are figures published by the Welsh Government. So, that's a cost of around £0.25 million per job. Given that the key plank of enterprise zones is job creation, these figures indicate to me that there's a huge level of investment that has not been good value for money. Can Wales afford another five years of investment on this kind of scale for the kind of return that I've highlighted?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I have to say to the Member that enterprise zones take time to come to full fruition. A huge amount of investment has gone into the Ebbw Vale area. We see, of course, what has happened on the old steelworks site, we're seeing the dualling of the A465, which will help Ebbw Vale and the surrounding communities, and, of course, he will know that we are investing a substantial sum in developing a technology park in the area. The thing with enterprise zones is that they have to be judged in the long term rather than the short.

Dai Lloyd AC: Turning back to the Port Talbot waterfront enterprise zone, plainly, as David Rees has outlined, local people do not want a superprison on that site and, as the landowner, the Welsh Government can prevent it. So, the question people are asking is: 'What are you doing to stop the sale of this land to the Ministry of Justice?'

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I refer back to the answer I gave to the Member for Aberavon, and that is that we have written to the MoJ with a number of questions. I've not seen that response. The response to those questions will form a part of our future consideration. They revolve around what the plans are for the site in terms of the type of prison. They revolve around what the future then is for Swansea and Cardiff prisons. We've asked those questions, we are not in a position to proceed further with this until we get answers to those questions, and those answers must be satisfactory.

Caroline Jones AC: First Minister, enterprise zones should be a fantastic way of regenerating some of Wales's most deprived regions, but the reality is somewhat different. Some of the zones are working well, attracting private investment and rejuvenating their local economy. Others are simply operating because of Government funding, and support a handful of jobs. First Minister, if the enterprise zones were truly successful, there wouldn't be the land available to build a prison in one of the zones. What does your Government plan to do differently to ensure that all enterprise zones attract private sector and infrastructure investment into their respective regions and create new jobs for local people?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, they do, but, of course, some will grow more quickly than others. There will be some parts of Wales that, because of their location and their geography, will find it easier than other enterprise zones. But that's what an enterprise zone is designed to do—to overcome some of those difficulties. As I said earlier on, we must judge enterprise zones on what they deliver in the longer term, because, of course, much investment is put into infrastructure, investment is often put in for training and it's through the development of that investment that we then see jobs being created in the longer term.

Question 5 [OAQ51260] was withdrawn.
Question 6—Gareth Bennett.

Congestion on Motorways and Trunk Roads

Gareth Bennett AC: 6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to alleviate the increasing congestion on motorways and trunk roads in South Wales Central? OAQ51297

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, if we follow the advice of his former party leader, it's reducing immigration that's the key to doing this. But tackling congestion is a priority focus of the Wales transport strategy and the national transport finance plan. We'll continue to work with Transport for Wales to advance our vision for delivering a transformational integrated transport system in Wales, providing high-quality, safe, affordable and sustainable transport for all.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks for the latter part of the answer. I agree that integrated transport is crucial.
One aspect I wanted to touch on was lack of roadside information. Many motorists have observed that on major roads in England there is often better information available on digital road signs than here in Wales, for instance estimated travel times to particular junctions, which can warn motorists of imminent congestion. Would you agree that more digital information could be made available and can the Welsh Government help to provide this?

Carwyn Jones AC: I'm aware of the signs that are seen in England, but I have to say they're not accurate, often. I've timed myself when I've seen those signs and they're—well, how can they be? Because they can't provide for what's ahead in the traffic, what might happen. Any number of things can interfere with the flow of traffic. That said, of course, we'll continue to keep under review what further information might be made available for drivers in order for their journeys to be made easier.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, flexible working patterns could provide one key to alleviating pressure on our motorways and trunk roads at key times. What work has the Welsh Government done to speak to big employers about the benefits of flexible working?

Carwyn Jones AC: This is something, of course, we want to ensure is very much part of working in the future. In terms of flexible working, I can say that we have funded travel plan co-ordinators who have worked with employers across Wales to encourage sustainable travel. The travel plan co-ordinators worked with organisations from a range of sectors, including local government, health, education, anchor companies and regionally important companies across Wales. They provided advice and support on the measures that could be adopted by business to reduce car journeys and promote sustainable travel through the implementation of travel plans. As part of those measures, advice was given as to how to promote active travel, car sharing, video-conferencing, homeworking and, of course, flexible working.

Mick Antoniw AC: First Minister, I very much welcome the Welsh Government and Rhondda Cynon Taf council investment along areas such as the A4119. But no matter how much we invest in the roads there, they are becoming a congested noose around the Taff-Ely and the Rhondda area in terms of traffic. The only real solution has got to be the extension of the metro, as has been outlined, in respect of Beddau through to Llantrisant. I wonder, First Minister, if you can confirm that those plans still feature as part of the Government's metro plansin order to resolve that, particularly bearing in mind the extent of housing development in those areas.

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, because the metro is designed to be expandable. Of course, the initial phase of the metro will look at what is already in place and the infrastructure that's already in place. I know there's a railway line. I don't know if it's entirely intact, actually, between the main line and with Beddau—I know the level crossing is still there. Indeed, yes, it's one of the issues that we will look at as the metro expands: how can we look at bringing services to areas where, previously, there was no equivalent service? What kind of service is appropriate for communities as they grow? How can we create the sort of sustainable travel we want to see through putting in place good-value and frequent alternatives? And of course, as far as his constituents are concerned in Beddau, looking at that in the longer term will be an important part of those plans.

Question 7 [OAQ51296] is withdrawn. Question 8, Llyr Gruffydd.

General Practitioners in North Wales

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 8. Will the First Minister make a statement on plans to attract and retain GPs in North Wales? OAQ51264

Carwyn Jones AC: The Welsh Government is committed to increasing the number of doctors working in general practice in all areas of Wales, including north Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: We know that the situation as it currently exists has been raised consistently with you in this Chamber, and I know of up to seven practices in the Wrexham area alone that are at threat of closure, and many others in other parts of the region are in the same position.
Now, one of the practical difficulties causing problems is the situation in terms of the cost of indemnity insurance for doctors—there’s a cost of over £10,000, possibly. Now, clearly, I wouldn’t expect them not to have that cover, but it can be a very practical problem, for example, in trying to attract retired doctors back to assist in certain areas. The British Medical Association has raised this regularly and we as Assembly Members, I know, have received clear messages to that end. Can I ask you, therefore, what the Government intends to do to try and tackle that practical problem?

Carwyn Jones AC: This is a very important point. I would imagine that there has been an increase in the cost of indemnity insurance. Therefore, may I write to the Member to give him the details that I can give to him as regards discussions with the BMA on this?

Darren Millar AC: Many of my own constituents have faced receiving letters through the post regarding their own local surgeries, particularly in the Colwyn Bay area, being vulnerable to changes. Indeed, some of the GPs have handed back their contracts to the local health board. Now, I know that the Welsh Government is working with health boards to try to overcome some of these challenges in the shorter term, but do you accept that one of the reasons we're facing a shortage of GPs is because of successive Welsh Governments having failed to train sufficient numbers in the past? And are you now confident that you have the systems in place to be able to attract the number of GPs that Wales will need, going forward?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, I am. The Cabinet Secretary will be making a statement shortly to Members on the definitive numbers recruited to the GP training scheme, but I understand this will show positive further recruitment, better than the initial fill rate of 91 per cent, which I think has been reported previously in this Chamber, and that will represent significant improvement in our Welsh GP training numbers.

The Wales and Borders Franchise

Simon Thomas AC: 9. Will the First Minister make a statement on preparatory work for the process of awarding the Wales and Borders franchise? OAQ51291

Carwyn Jones AC: May I refer the Member to the further statement issued by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport on 6 November regarding the Wales and borders rail service procurement?

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the First Minister. I have read that statement, of course, which was released as a result of the fact that Arriva Trains Wales had withdrawn from the franchise process. Now, reading between the lines and the reports around that, that turns around the fact that Arriva had decided that there was no commercial value now in that franchise, including, of course, the metro and building upon the metro. That, in turn, reflects the fact that there is still reliance on the subsidy from Westminster, and the responsibility being transferred onto Westminster, because this process hasn’t yet been completed by your Government. So, what can you tell us today that can give passengers in Wales an assurance, as well as the staff of Arriva Trains Wales, that those jobs will remain in place, that the services will remain in place and that there won’t be any problems in providing this franchise as you have pledged?

Carwyn Jones AC: First of all, of course, there are issues to be discussed with the Department of Transport in London. There is no big problem, as far as I know,with regard to proceeding with the process. It's not unusual for a company to withdraw, and, of course, we know that there are companies that are still part of that process.
May I say that what we would have preferred to see is a situation where the finance and the funding would have been transferred, and that we could then direct Network Rail—but, of course, that hasn't been given to us—and that we would be given an opportunity to run the franchise as an arm's-length body in the public sector, which is something that has been made available to Scotland but has not been gifted to us, and we are completely angry about that? So, there is no reason now why this should not proceed, and, of course, it's something we want to ensure in order to see a better service for the people of Wales.

Nick Ramsay AC: First Minister, you're quite right to say that the decision of Arriva to drop out of the bidding process and the franchise process does happen. We shouldn't get too worked up about a bidder deciding that it's not for them. At what point, however, did you know that they were dropping out? Was it sudden? Did they give advance warning? I'm wondering: did the Welsh Government receive any feedback from the company and the staff involved that would be beneficial now, moving forward with the rest of the process? Because, clearly, if other franchised businesses were to drop out as well, then we could end up in quite a tricky situation down the line, so to speak.

Carwyn Jones AC: Could I write to the Member with the exact data on which Arriva TrainsWales notified Transport Wales on that basis? As I say, it's not uncommon for bidders for major projects to withdraw during the tender process. Arriva made clear that they've done this for their own commercial reasons, and I will share what I can with the Member in terms of information surrounding Arriva's decision. What I can—there will be some issues, obviously, that I can't disclose, I suspect for commercial reasons.

Siân Gwenllian AC: A few weeks ago, it became apparent that new trains of the Great Western Railway service, which serve south Wales, won't include any bilingual signage or announcements. As expected, there were a number of complaints made to the company by passengers, following this news, condemning the decision taken, including by the former Welsh language Minister, Alun Davies. Now, the company's excuse was that these trains serve areas of England as well as Wales, and therefore using bilingual signage and making bilingual announcements wouldn't be appropriate.Interestingly, some passengers in England have expressed support to having Welsh services in England, talking about their experiences of travelling from one country to another in Europe and hearing the language change regularly. Ensuring bilingual signage and announcements on trains is a matter of fundamental respect for the Welsh language. So, can you commit to ensuring that language standards will be introduced by the Government in the transport sector—standards that have been on the Government's desk for almost a year, unfortunately—and therefore that companies such as GWR would be able to provide services and the respect that Welsh speakers deserve?

Carwyn Jones AC: May I ask the Minister, therefore, to write to you about this issue?FootnoteLink They're able to offer the service now, of course. It seems that the story has been told in a way that suggests that this isn't possible at present, but it would of course be possible, and they should, in my view. Arriva have used the Welsh language on their trains although their trains travel through England; they don't physically change the language on the signage as they travel through England. So, there is no reason whatsoever why Great Western Railway shouldn't use both Welsh and English. I think that it's right to say that people would respect the fact that both languages are used, and that people in England would be very interested to see it.

Information further to Plenary

Opencast Developments

David J Rowlands AC: 10. Will the First Minister confirm that it is the policy of the Welsh Government not to allow any new opencast developments in Wales? OAQ51261

Carwyn Jones AC: We will be consulting early next year on amendments to 'Planning Policy Wales' to prevent new opencast developments in Wales.

David J Rowlands AC: I thank the First Minister for that confirmation because, First Minister, we've seen a number of instances where companies involved in the opencast industry have failed to honour their obligation to reinstate sites, either partially or wholly, once activities have ceased. It seems incredible, then, that the company previously owning Ffos-y-fran opencastin Merthyr has been allowed to rescind its guarantee of some £15 million by Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council. The council instituted, in its place, an escrowaccount, which the ownerswill be expected to pay into, thus effectively swapping a guaranteed sum of money to one dependent on the efficacy of the new company. Is the First Minister able to shed any light on what seems to be an extraordinary decision?

Carwyn Jones AC: I can't. It's a matter for Merthyr council, of course. They have the responsibility for enforcement of planning. I have seen—not Ffos-y-fran—but I have seen incidences elsewhere, where opencast mining has finished, and still sites have not yet been restored. That is because, to my mind, of an issue with thebonds that companies were required to produce in the days when coal was privatised. There was, if I understand it, a limit placed on the bonds they were required to place, and those bonds are not sufficient to cover the restoration of the land in some cases. That is a historic problem, but it's a matter for Merthyr council to explain. I'm not aware of the circumstances why it is that they've taken the decision that they have.

The Proposed Welsh Language Bill

Leanne Wood AC: 11. Will the First Minister make a statement on the White Paper on the proposed Welsh language Bill? OAQ51300

Carwyn Jones AC: The consultation on our White Paper that outlined our proposals for a Welsh language Bill ended on 31 October. We are currentlyanalysing the responses and we will make a further statement in due course.

Leanne Wood AC: First Minister, many organisations have been in touch with me in order to express concerns about your intention to abolish the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner and to weaken the fundamental rights of Welsh speakers. But, unfortunately, your Government has accused the language organisations of being too conservative. Groups such as the mentrau iaith and Mudiad Meithrin do a great deal to assist the language. Given the concerns expressed by many organisations and specialists in this area, is it now time for you to reconsider the decision to abolish the role of Welsh Language Commissioner?

Carwyn Jones AC: We’ve naturally consulted on the Bill itself and we’re now going to analyse the responses that we’ve received. It’s vitally important that they are considered in detail. The aim of the Government is to improve the situation and reinforce and strengthen the rights available to speakers to ensure that we can attain the target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. And so what we’re now doing is considering the views of organisations and other bodies to see whether we can understand their concerns.

Suzy Davies AC: Just on that point of consideration, I wonder if you can tell us whether, in examining the case for the new body to replace the language commissioner, the Government, as it says in the White Paper, needs to consider carefully how any staff might be affected and whether there will be transfers of staff. So, can you tell me whether officials have already scoped the likely cost of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981, observing changing pension and employment rights, and, specifically, the costs associated with managing individuals' data protection in line with the new regulation, and concluded that that kind of change is actually worth the money at all?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, first of all, can I give staff assurances that, of course, when there is change, we want to make sure that they have TUPE'd over, as the phrase has it, and thatwe are in a situation where peoplecan get an understanding of their situation as soon as possible, and, of course, get comfort as soon as possible. Any regulatory assessmentof the Bill will follow the normal process, and Members will have the opportunity to scrutinise that.

Thank you, First Minister.

3. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item on our agenda is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the leader of the house—Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Not surprisingly, multiple changes have been made to this week's business. The debates on the regulated services regulations andthe Children's Commissioner for Wales 2016-17 annual report, which were due to have been held last Tuesday, will take place this afternoon. The debates on the Official Statistics (Wales) Order 2017 and tackling substance misuse have been postponed until next week. I've also postponed the Stage 3 debate on the abolition of the Right to Buy and Associated Rights (Wales) Bill until 28 November. Questions tabled for answer last week by the education, health and social services secretaries will be taken tomorrow, and questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport and the Counsel General will move to next week.
Finally, Business Committee has agreedthat the Member debate and short debate postponed from last week will take place tomorrow, with the Welsh Conservative debate and the committee debate on digital infrastructure being postponed until next Wednesday.
Business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement and announcement found amongst the meeting papers, which are available to Members electronically.

Jane Hutt AC: Can I start by congratulating Julie James on her appointment as Leader of the House and Chief Whip? And can I say how delighted I am to have had the first opportunity since I was elected to this Assembly in 1999 to actually ask a question? So, I was determined I was going to get straight off the mark.
Can I ask you, leader of the house, if you could respond to the latest Trussell Trust figures that show an increase of 13 per cent in the use of foodbanks between April and September of this year—2017—compared with the same period last year? The Vale of Glamorgan foodbank has reported on the plight of a mother they helped recently, with five children, and no food left on a Friday. The Department for Work and Pensions said they couldn't help until the following week. Can we have an update from the Welsh Government on representations being made to stall the roll-out of universal credit, given that foodbanks in areas of full universal credit roll-out have seen a 30 per cent average increase in demand?

Julie James AC: Well, can I say how delighted I am to have received my first question from my predecessor in post, who has an enormous set of shoes for me to step into? And can I also say how incredibly grateful I am for all of the advice and support she's given me over the years, and, indeed, over the last two weeks, which has been a real help, in what's been a very difficult time for absolutely everybody, including the family of Carl Sargeant?
In terms of the Trussell Trust figures, I absolutely recognise the extremely important issue that the Member raises. In areas of universal credit roll-out, we are seeing real increases in people struggling, and we really do call on the UK Government to look again at the six-week delay that can sometimes take place. Indeed, I've seen eight weeks' delay as well in people accessing the money that they are entitled to. And I don't know how people are expected to manage without that money going through, and we really do urge the UK Government to look again at that.
Following the Plenary debate on the UK Government's welfare reforms and universal credit, the Minister for housing and regeneration did write to the UK Government to express the concerns of the Assembly, and to call for a halt to the roll-out of universal credit. I'm sure the new Minister, when she's got into her portfolio, will do something very similar.
Analysis for the Welsh Government by the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows that households in Wales will lose around £460 a year, or 1.6 per cent of their net income, on average, if all of the tax and benefit reforms that were planned to be introduced by the previous UK Government, between 2015-16 and 2019-20, are actually implemented. So, we very much hope the Chancellor will have a change of heart in that regard.
We know that lower income families, especially those with children, will loseconsiderably more on average—around 12 per cent, in fact, of their net income. And large families are, of course, particularly hard hit, losing around £7,750 a year, or 20 per cent of net income on average. And this is an absolute shame in a country as rich as ours, and we certainly do urge the UK Government to rethink its welfare strategies.
In the meantime, of course, we are putting in all of the assistance we can. We're continuing our discretionary relief where possible, our council tax reduction scheme helps, our Families First and Flying Start programmes are very helpful, the pupil development grant, of course, supports our schools in assisting children from families who areparticularly hard hit, and we are very proud indeed of our campaign to stop hunger during the school holidays, which we supported last year, and I know many Members in the Chamber supported personally.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I also congratulate the Minister for her new role as the leader of the house, and I'm sure she'll do the better job—or exactly the same—as the predecessor did.
May I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport on the delay in dualling the eastern section of the A465 Heads of the Valleys road in my region? The Cabinet Secretary has ordered a review of this £220 million project, and concerns have been shown that it is over budget and behind schedule. Meanwhile, local businesses are suffering because of this delay, and some have expressed concern about their future viability, andbusinesses are really concerned about this delay, and all this nonsense going on there.
May I ask for an urgent statement on this matter, which potentially could have a devastating effect on the economy in my region, please?

Julie James AC: Well, thank you for that very important question and your kind remarks at the beginning. The Cabinet Secretary has released a written statement on progress quite recently, but I will ask him to look again at the issue in the light of your remarks.

Simon Thomas AC: I’d also like to welcome Julie James to her new role and congratulate her on her appointment and also thank Jane Hutt for the way in which she has dealt with all parties in this Chamber over many years. I very much hope that that tradition will remain in place.
I have a few questions for Julie James, if I may. First of all, I note, differently to your predecessor, you have other responsibilities around infrastructure and violence against women, and so on. I would like to know how Assembly Members will be able to question you in light of your ministerial responsibilities, rather than your responsibilities as leader of the house, and I would like to you to confirm how that is going to happen.
Secondly, I’d like to know whether it’s the Government’s intention, today, to make a statement on children’s services in Powys. This is the twentieth day since the inquiry was carried out by the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales, and they are supposed to be publishing their improvement plan today, and that’s been confirmed to me by the inspectorate yesterday. I haven’t seen anything published as of yet and I would like to know whether Government has received any improvement plan and whether the Government will be making a statement before the Assembly, or a written statement, on that plan, in order for us to understand whether it is robust enough, should we improve it, and whether the Government is going to take further steps to tackle what has happened in Powys County Council.
Finally, if I could draw the leader of the house’s attention to the no named day motion No. 6563, which is in my name. That motion deals with the relationship of Wales with Catalunya and what has been happening recently in that nation. We know that the Speaker of the Catalan Parliament has been imprisoned for some hours, that many Ministers remain in prison and that the Catalan Prime Minister is having to deal with the situation from another country—Belgium. It’s clear that many Members here are interested in what’s happening in Catalunya, and particularly from the point of view of the relationship between one Parliament and another; never mind whether you’re in favour or against the political decision, it's a Parliament speaking to another Parliament. And, as the motion has been tabled, will the Government make time available, even if it’s only half an hour, for that motion to be discussed in this Assembly?

Julie James AC: Well, thank you very much for your kind remarks at the beginning and for that series of questions.
The first one, which is very much the easiest of them to answer on your first day in a job, is that we will be making a question time available in the normal way for me to be questioned on portfolio responsibilities, and Assembly Members will have the opportunity to table questions in the normal way. The Llywydd and I have already discussed the possibility for that and that will be a perfectly straightforward way of doing it.
In terms of the other two: the new Minister with responsibility for children is sitting in the Chamber, and I think heard your remarks and will be able to take them forward with some despatch and will be taking us through the annual report shortly. So, I'm sure he'll be able to address that. In terms of the third one, the absolute truth on my first day in the job is that I have absolutely no idea. I will, however, undertake to discuss this with the people responsible for Government business and come back to the Member in due course.

Gareth Bennett AC: I'd also like to welcome the new leader of the house to her new role. Her position is due, as we know, to a fairly major reshuffle. What we in UKIP would like to request is a statement on what are the projected costs to the public purse of this reshuffle. It is a biggish reshuffle. As stated, the number of Ministers has risen from 12 to 14. Given that there will be a cost in terms of spin doctors, as well as the actual extra ministerial salaries, can we have an outline of the need for the extra posts and of the projected additional costs, and where that extra money will be found in terms of the Welsh Government's budget? Thank you.

Julie James AC: The First Minister has an absolute right to organise this Government as he sees fit and he has done so.

Julie Morgan AC: Can I welcome the new leader of the house to her post, and also thank Jane Hutt for the tireless and detailed way that she’s answered questions in this session, and the great help she’s been both inside and outside the Chamber? Could the leader of the house arrange for the Minister for health and social services to make a statement about progress into the inquiry into the contaminated blood scandal? I think we all welcome the fact that the Government in Westminster has announced that there will be a statutory inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005. We know that the Cabinet Office will be running the inquiry, but we don’t yet know who will chair the inquiry, and I wondered if the Minister for health and social services could report on any contact that he has had from the Government in Westminster, and whether he will be consulted or will be any part of the decision making about who will lead this inquiry, which is so welcomed by so many people here in Wales.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Thank you for those kind remarks, and I would just like to reiterate the remarks about my predecessor, Jane Hutt, who I’m extremely grateful to, myself, for her advice over the years. I know the Member has worked tirelessly in this campaign to get this inquiry under way, and I pay tribute to her efforts in that regard. We of course also welcome the inquiry being placed on a statutory footing, not least as a result of her efforts and the efforts of her cross-party group in expressing the views of the people of Wales. We agree that the inquiry should be led by a very senior judge, and that the terms of reference should be as wide as possible to get all of the answers that people want. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will delighted to come back and give an update as soon as he has anything to report on. I’m not actually sure whether he has anything new to report on just yet. I’m sure he will do so as soon as he does.

Thank you. Finally, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I also congratulate you, leader of the house, on your appointment—well deserved—and also congratulate Jane Hutt on her maiden speech in this Chamber as a backbench AM? I’m sure that you’ll have many more, and a long career as a backbencher.
I’d like to support Mohammad Asghar in his comments earlier about the A465, specifically between Gilwern and Brynmawr. I attended a meeting of residents recently—I see the Member for the other end of Clydach gorge also smiling at me—I attended a meeting recently, and whilst there was great support for the project, and great support for the development of this stretch, there is concern about a lack of consultation between Costain, the developers, and local residents. There have been occasions where road closures happened without the statutory notice, and also where design changes have been made to that stretch of road without adequate consultation. So, could we have a statement from the Welsh Government, from the Cabinet Secretary responsible, outlining how he’s making sure that this project is kept on track, and that local residents are fully involved at each stage of the process?

Julie James AC: Thank you for that, and thank you for your kind remarks as well. The section between Gilwern and Brynmawr currently under construction represents a major investment in Welsh infrastructure. Draft Orders and an environmental statement for the section between Dowlais Top and Hirwaun have recently been published, and these could result in a public inquiry next spring and the start of works at the end of 2019. The Cabinet Secretary did recently talk in this Chamber about the A465, but I’m sure the very specific points you’ve raised will also have been heard by him and his officials, and he’ll be able to address them in due course.

Sorry, I shouldn’t have had that half-term break. Finally finally, then, this time—well, now there are two people who are going to jump up here. Finally finally finally, then, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I also welcome you to your new role and pay tribute to your predecessor? Can I call for two statements, please? The first is a request for an update on special measures at the Betsi Cadwaladr university health board. The Cabinet Secretary and leader of the house will be aware of the fact that an update report was published last week on the situation following the Tawel Fan scandal at the board, and unfortunately it would appear that there have been further delays to the follow-up work that has been conducted at the health board at the moment, and that reports will not now be published until next March, some three and a half years after the publication of the first report that was made available to that health board. Clearly families are looking to try to get some closure on the problems that they have experienced, and of course staff need some closure as well in relation to their positions. Indeed, some staff have moved on and potentially may have escapedsome natural justice. So, I wonder whether we can have an update on that particularissue.
Can I also call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for environment and rural affairs on the single environmentgrant? Concerns have been raised with me, by both Conwy and Denbighshirelocal authorities, regarding the top slicing of this grant and the reduction in its value this year and the impact that that might have on their refuse and waste collection services in particular. I understand that the reductions are around three times the reduction compared to last year's grant and that that is causing them some significant concern. So, it would be good just to have a discussionon that and an opportunityto question theCabinet Secretary about the rationale for it.

Julie James AC: Thank you. In terms of Tawel Fan, the Health and Social Care Advisory Service and Donna Ockenden are now at the report-writing stage and they've confirmed the work can't be completed before early next year. The timetable published reflects that, so I'm sure the CabinetSecretary will come back to us once that work is complete. I think that work should be allowed to be completed before that happens.
In terms of the environmental grant to local authorities, local authoritieshave had their money freed up quite considerably this year with a lot of previouslyhypothecated sums taken away in order to give them maximum ability to manage their own finances. I'm sure the new Minister for local government and public services, who's in the Chamber to hear your remarks, will take them on board when he first addressesthis place.

Thank you very much, leader of the house.
Item 4 and item 5: I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 12.24, to take the two motions that are grouped for debate. Does any Member object? No.

4. & 5. The Regulated Services (Registration) (Wales) Regulations 2017 and the Regulated Services (Annual Returns) (Wales) Regulations 2017—Postponed from 7 November

Therefore, I will call on the Minister for children and social services to move the motions. Huw Irranca Davies.

Motion NDM6554Jane Hutt
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Regulated Services (Registration) (Wales) Regulations 2017 are made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 29 September 2017.
Motion NDM6553Jane Hutt
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Regulated Services (Annual Returns) (Wales) Regulations 2017are made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 2 October 2017.

Motions moved.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motions.
The Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Bill was passed unanimously almost two years ago. It provides a statutory framework for the regulation and inspection of social care services and regulates the social care workforce in Wales. A significant series of subordinate legislation does emerge from the legislation and it's important, for the benefit of those in receipt of care and support and the providers, for us to get this right. My officials have worked closely with the regulator and the sector in order to develop regulations that are proportionate, robust, and meet the needs.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The two sets of regulations before you today are fundamental componentsof the new system. They were developed during phase one of implementation and were subject to a full 12-week consultation. The Act requires that providers of regulatedservices register with the Welsh Ministers—inpractice, theCare and Social Services Inspectorate Wales. It establishes a revised set of processes for registrationand brings into effect a service-based approach, enabling providersto make a single application covering all of their services. Registrations may subsequentlybe varied to allow for additional services and locations.
If I turn to the Regulated Services (Registration) (Wales) Regulations 2017, this covers the requirements for applications to register and for applications to vary that registration. These include information and documents required upon application. This will ensure that CSSIW has sufficient information to make an informed decision about the proposed service and the suitability of the applicant to provide that service. It also provides clarity and certainty for providers as to the type of information they will be asked for.
The Act also requiresservice providers to produce annual returns about the services they provide, which will be publishedon CSSIW's website alongside the provider's inspection report. Much of the detail to be included in an annual return is on the face of the Act. However, theRegulated Services (Annual Returns) (Wales) Regulations 2017 set out further information to be provided about the service, its staffing and any accommodationprovided, as well as arrangements for staff training and for workforce planning. This will ensure that everyone has access to accurate, relevant and comparable information, to help decide upon the best service to meet their needs.
The regulations also require that providers use an online annual return form. This will ensure that every provider, regardless of size or corporate structure, completes the return in a consistent way. Although these regulationsdeal with largely technical issues, they underpin key provisions of the Act. They will help to deliver greater transparency by ensuring that useful information is readily available to all. They will also streamline and simplify registration, reducing the burden on providers whilst ensuring that the regulator can fulfillits duties effectively. Both sets of regulations here are necessary to achieve the new system for regulating and inspecting social care services in Wales, and I commend them to Members.

Suzy Davies AC: May I congratulate the new Minister? I look forward to working with you in one of the most important areas covered in this Assembly, namely social care.

Suzy Davies AC: We won't be opposing these regulations at all, but in the responses to the Government's work on this there were some queries raised about the capacity of the ICT system that will underpin the registration and annual return system. I think the response was that the information had been collated and passed to relevant officials and Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales. I appreciate that you may not be able to answer this question in the Chamber today as you're new in post, Minister, but what confirmation have you had that the IT system can now cope with the requirement of these regulations, because we're all familiar with very benign, unhelpful legislation which has fallen short just because of poor delivery? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Suzy, I thank you for that question, and I've not had raised with me at this moment any concerns from officials that there is any lack of capacity, but I'll certainly take that back and explore it further. I know the point that underpins the new process that we have in front of us, subject to these statutory instruments being passed today, is actually to produce that more friendly online registration system, more streamlined and more user friendly and more efficient as well. I haven't had those issues raised about capacity, but I will go back and check and I'll write to Suzy as well,FootnoteLink and to other Members who are interested in this, particularly if there are any concerns and to show how they've been overcome.

Information further to Plenary

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 4. Does any Member object? No, therefore, that motion is deemed to be passed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

And, again, the proposal is to agree the motion under item 5. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, that motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. The Official Statistics (Wales) Order 2017—Postponed from 7 November

Item 6 on the Official Statistics (Wales) Order 2017 has been withdrawn.

7. Debate: The Children's Commissioner for Wales's Annual Report 2016-17—Postponed from 7 November

So, we move now on to item 7, which is the debate on the Children's Commissioner for Wales's annual report of 2016-17, which was postponed from last week. I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care to move the motion—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Motion NDM6550Jane Hutt
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the Children’s Commissioner for Wales’ Annual Report 2016-17.

Motion moved.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank you once again, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'd like to begin my contribution to this debate as Minister for children by paying tribute to the work of the former Cabinet Secretary, Carl Sargeant. Carl was passionately committed to improving life for children and young people across Wales, determined to make a positive difference to their well-being and their prospects for the future. He realised the devastating impact of adverse childhood experiences and the importance of prevention and intervention. He supported the ACEs hub, and he introduced the Children First areas to bring people and organisations together to improve people's lives. He was passionate about the need to tackle the disadvantages faced by looked-after children and care leavers, introducing the St David's Day fund and pressing public bodies to recognise their responsibilities as corporate parents. He worked hard to promote positive parenting and prepare the way for legislation on physical punishment of children, and he worked tirelessly to ensure that the rights of children and young people were always recognised and respected across Government. I will do all I can to honour and continue his excellent work and unwavering commitment to children and young people, in his memory.
As a Government, we want all children in Wales to have the best possible start in life. The early years are a key priority within our programme for government and our national strategy 'Prosperity for All'. We are focused on making a positive difference to the health, the well-being, the educational outcomes and the prospects for the future of all children and young people. However, they cannot be considered in isolation. Their well-being and family outcomes are inextricably linked with those of parents, families and communities. Through working collaboratively and listening to the voices of children themselves, and of young people themselves, we can bring about real and sustainable change. It is important that we have this regular, meaningful debate on our achievements so far in Wales regarding children's rights, but we should not stop there. We need to continue to make progress not just as a Welsh Government, but by working collaboratively across the public and the third sectors, and within our communities, including with children and young people.
I believe it is vital to have an impartial and independent voice for children and young people in Wales—one that can promote and safeguard their interests, and challenge the work of Government and others through the lens of children's rights. We have this now in the office of the Children's Commissioner for Wales, and I look forward to meeting with her soon to discuss how we can work together.
In her annual report, the commissioner has highlighted her achievements in the first year of her three-year strategic plan, in terms of project and core work. This includes 528 individual cases handled by the commissioner's independent investigations and advice service. While the rest of this debate is likely to focus on the commissioner's recommendations on general policies and programmes for children, I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the importance of the service that she and her office provides for individual children and young people who need assistance.
In this year's annual report, the commissioner has presented 19 recommendations. Fourteen relate to providing children with what they need, such as education, healthcare andextra help if they are disabled, and five relate to protection, ensuring that they're safe from harm. As a Government, we share substantial common ground with the commissioner. We have and we will continue to work collaboratively with her and others for the benefit of children and young people. In the last year, for example, we have worked with the commissioner and the Welsh Local Government Association to improve transition for care leavers. The positive work in this area has been acknowledged in the report.
We are delivering on our commitment to transform the system for supporting children and young people with additional learning needs. The Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill has children's rights at its very foundation. The new system will put children and young people at the heart of a person-centred process where everybody works together for their benefit. Subject to the Assembly passing the Bill over the coming weeks, it should receive Royal Assent early in 2018. Our focus will then shift fully to implementation, and we'll continue to work with the commissioner to ensure that the new system fully reflects a rights-based approach.
The First Minister will publish his response to the commissioner's report, including the recommendations for the Welsh Government, on or before 30 November, so Members will understand if I won't be detailing our response during today's debate. But it is important that we work together to maximise all of the opportunities to improve outcomes for children and young people that are afforded through our programmes, especially those that target the early years.
The evidence around adverse childhood experiences—ACEs—shows the importance of prevention and early identification and intervention, and why we need to work collaboratively to ensure that all children in Wales have the best possible start to life. The current focus on ACEs does not mean, however, that we are no longer concerned about the impact of other areas of disadvantage upon children, particularly those of neglect and poverty, and I will continue to focus on delivering for children and young people.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I look forward to speaking to the children's commissioner, to practitioners working with children and, most importantly, to children and young people about how we achieve that. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I welcome the new Minister to his post? I look forward to engaging with him on children's matters and to working collaboratively with him where we can find some common ground. Also, I'd like to put on record my tribute to his predecessor, Carl Sargeant, in undertaking a role on behalf of children here in Wales. He was always very sincere with that role, and I know he cared passionately about driving the Government's agenda forward.
I also want to pay tribute to the commissioner and her staff. I've had some excellent contact with the commissioner since taking on this portfolio responsibility myself, and I really do appreciate the work that she puts into engaging with all Assembly Members in this Chamber of all political parties, and, indeed, the support that she givesfrom time to time with individual pieces of casework in my constituency where there are issues that I believe are of national significance. She's always extremely helpful and her staff are always very quick to report back and to respond to individual concerns.
The report is a very wide-ranging report. It talks about all sorts of different issues, but i just want to focus on a few, if I may. One of the things that the children's commissioner and, indeed, her predecessor commissioners have been very interested in seeing established in Wales is a national advocacy service for children and young people. The Welsh Government has been slow to get local authority partners, I think, on board to be able to roll that national advocacy service out and to make sure that there's consistent access to high-quality advocacy here in Wales for the children who need it. And I wonder, Minister, whether you'll be able to provide us with an update today on just where that roll-out actually is, and what the current state of affairs is, because I know that this is a concern certainly to people in my own constituency, and when you look at the number of young people who are picking up the phone increasingly to the commissioner and her team, it is appropriate, I think, that we need to make sure that we nail this issue once and for all so that it's not going to be a repeated feature and we're not going to have this sense of déjà vu in future years when these reports are brought forward.
The commissioner also, of course, refers to public transport costs in her annual report. She talks particularly about post-16 transport and the burden that that can put on children and young people. The Minister will be aware that my party has tried to offer a solution to that, which we genuinely extend to the Government and hope that you will explore and hopefully take forward, because we do believe that our green card proposal has the opportunity to make a real difference to young people across Wales and would help to solve the very issue that the children's commissioner has identified in her report about the cost, particularly of bus travel, to children and young people. Now, I know, Minister, that the Welsh Government has under review the home-to-school transport guidance that is issued to local authorities, and, again, I wonder whether you can give us an update on that, particularly in terms of post-16 provision, and perhaps you'll be able to tell us also whether you are going to now seriously consider, given the recommendation in the commissioner's report, our green card proposals. 
I wonder also whether you might be prepared to consider reviewing the powers of the commissioner and her office. The Public Accounts Committee produced a report a number of years back that compared the different approaches in terms of commissioners that we have in Wales and the lack of consistency that we've got with them in terms of their appointment processes and, indeed, in terms of the ranges of their powers. And I just wonder whether, working with your colleagues in Government, that is something that you might be prepared to take forward. It's not mentioned specifically in the commissioner's report, but I do know that it's really important that we have commissioners who have teeth so that when they bare those teeth or bite people from time to time that there's actually an appropriate response from the different public agencies and parts of the public sector that we need that response from.
And just finally, I record also my hopes that the additional learning needs Bill will progress through this Assembly very soon. Obviously, we've got Stage 3 coming up next week of that Bill. One of the most important amendments that still needs to be made to that Bill is in respect of putting on the face of the Bill reference to the United Nations principles on children's rights. And I think it's really important that we've got reference to theUnited Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child on the face of that Bill, and I wonder whether you can tell us what the Welsh Government is minded to do in response to some of the amendments that have been tabled that seek to get a reference to those on the face of that legislation. Thank you.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I also congratulate the Minister on his appointment and endorse the comments that he made about the contribution of his predecessor? I know that Carl Sargeant dealt with issues in relation to children's rights from the heart, and if the current Minister undertakes his role with the same committment and passion then I'm sure that the position of children in Wales will be strengthened and will continue to improve.
May I alsoendorse the thanks to the commissioner for her work? I welcome the report. As with every year, perhaps, it’s an opportunity to remind ourselves of the priorities of children and young people, and an opportunity to enhance the Government’s thinking around children’s issues, and to focus on the priorities that need to be taken into account in accordance, of course, with the aspirations of the children and young people themselves through what’s included in the commissioner’s report.
The most disappointing factor for me in this report is that there are so many issues that were raised last year that still haven’t been sufficiently tackled, in the view of the commissioner. If you’ve read the report, you will know that the commissioner notes a traffic light system—red, amber and green. There are a number of items that are red, which shows that there has been no progress made. Now, one of those is home schooling. The recommendation in last year's report was that the Welsh Government should strengthen the requirements for parents to register as home schoolers and that all children taught at home should see a professional worker at least once a year, so that they can express a view about their educational experiences.
Now, the Government, of course, has been considering this area in various ways, over a number of years. Guidance has been reintroduced a short while ago, but introducing a register and statutory requirements that are more robust to ensure that children are seen and that someone does speak to them is still a priority for the commissioner, and, as the report notes, remains for the Government to take sufficient action on. Ideally, I’d like to hear today where the Government is moving on this. When will we see action, and what is your intention in this specific area? But, given what you said earlier about the First Minister’s intention to respond by the end of the month, I would very much hope that specific reference will be made to this area and that there will be a clear statement of intent in terms of what the Government intends to do on this particular issue.
Another issue that is noted as being red is child poverty. Now, we know that children are facing the impact of austerity on their parents’ income, as well as cuts at the other end in terms of the services available to mitigate the impacts of poverty, as those services are being cut at the moment. Now, we’ve previously raised the need to have a strategy to tackle child poverty. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, UK Government cuts to benefits are likely to lead to an increase of 4 per cent in child poverty across the UK, with Wales being impacted disproportionately in terms of problems, particularly in terms of universal credit, and that is one reason for that disproportionate impact. Now, some of the changes to tax credits and changes to benefits have already been implemented and have had a disproportionate impact on children, particularly children in single-parent families, or families where there are more than two children, so it’s more important than ever, I think, that a plan is in place in order to tackle this problem.
Also, one valid and interesting point that’s raised by the commissioner is that provision of 30 hours of high-quality childcare should be provided for all children at three or four years of age, rather than simply for families where the parents are in work. Now, that, of course, was the exact Plaid Cymru policy in the last election, with the rationale as outlined by the commissioner. The danger is that those whose parents don’t work, who are, perhaps, at greater risk of falling behind in terms of education—the risk is that they will fall even further behind if others are given that additional support. Now, I understand that there’s been a strong focus on parents in work and ensuring that parents can work more hours in light of that provision, but the main focus should, of course, be on the children themselves. That is, if there’s a positive outcome for the parents as a result of that, then great, but it’s the children who should be at the heart of this policy, and I would strongly argue in favour of what the commissioner has called for. I would like to hear, as a result of that, confirmation, perhaps, that the Government’s intention in the longer term is to ensure that that provision is available for all children.

Hefin David AC: I'd like to echo the Minister's statements about his predecessor, about Carl Sargeant. One of the lessons I've learnt from Carl Sargeant about how to deal with Ministers was during the election campaign, when I had a difference of opinion with the Government and I came here, on the invitation of Jeff Cuthbert,to meet with Carl Sargeant, and I said, expecting a big row, 'I have a difference of opinion with you, Minister', and he said, 'Work it out yourself in your constituency and we'll settle the difference when you get back at the ranch', which I very much appreciated. I did manage to set out my opinion, which I was then able to have dialogue on with the Minister subsequently. And I hope that, in his post, the new Minister will also follow that excellent pattern of behaviour.
With regard to the children's commissioner's report, I wanted to raise two issues. One is on page 25 of the children's commissioner's report. She references the Welsh Government's childcare offer and says in the second paragraph that:
'Universal childcare should be at the heart of ourambitions for public services in Wales and whilstI am, in principle, pleased with its developmentsto date, we must recognise the growing evidencebase supporting the development of a universal system, which promotes social mobility as well aseconomic prosperity, by extending entitlementto affordable, high quality childcare and earlyeducation.'
And that being to children of non-working parents. The only way I can understand that is where it's put into the context of Flying Start areas, and an ideal way of doing that would of course be universal provision of Flying Start. But, given the UK Government's position on austerity, it makes it incredibly difficult to achieve that. But I would like to just notify the Minister of what the children's commissioner said in evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. She said, and I quote:
'I think the programme could be flexed in some way, and could be adapted in some way, to make it a broader offer to more children, because, for me, it’s about the impact on children, rather than it just being a service for parents.'
I'd like to know what dialogue the Minister plans to have with the children's commissioner to resolve that issue, because one of the things she said she would do is return to committee and give us more specific policy ideas about how she'd proceed. And therefore I think it's really important that the Minister speaks to the children's commissioner about that.
The second issue is one that was very close to Carl Sargeant's heart, and that's the issue of adverse childhood experiences and resolving those. Again, the children's commissioner saidthe concept of ACEs was irrefutable but that she had
'concerns about any discourse that puts most of our response to child poverty...just in this context.'
And I'm very encouraged by what the Minister has said in his statement that recognises that. I think my concern would be if we start talking about three or more ACEs that then become a trigger for social services action. I would be concerned that ACEs become less a concept and more a threshold that children must meet in order to trigger action, and I don't think that would be a helpful use of ACEs, because I think it's far more qualitative than that, and one ACE could have a devastating impact on families, and we need to recognise that and see it as a useful concept for understanding childhood experiences but not one for triggering interventions by that criterion.
So, all I'd really want the Minister to be able to tell me is: first of all, with regard to that issue of Flying Start, will he open that dialogue with the children's commissioner, and also, with regard to ACEs, will he recognise it as a concept but not as a trigger for action?

Jenny Rathbone AC: I welcome Huw Irranca-Davies into this post. You've got some very big shoes to fill, but I'm sure you will bring your thoughtful and learned approach to this particular area of public policy, as you have to others in the past. We face a pretty difficult situation for children, and I think the children's commissioner's report reflects that in part. Under 'Provision', she highlights the fact that children have rights to have their needs met, including safe and warm housing, food, education, healthcare, extra care if they're disabled, and access to leisure, culture and play and extra help if families are living in poverty. But it's very difficult to see how we're actually going to achieve that in the current set of circumstances we face. I mentioned earlier in questions to the First Minister the exponential rise in child poverty that is projected by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the difficulties that we have in any way mitigating the consequences of that,because we know that poverty will increase the number of adverse childhood experiences, and that, in turn, will increase the numbers very badly affected for the rest of their lives.
We've also learnt within the last week that the UK is now regarded as the most obese nation in western Europe, and we don't need to run for the statistics to know that Wales is probably at the top of this particular league table in relation to other parts of the United Kingdom. So, I'm particularly concerned as to how we can address both those issues (a) in terms of ensuring that all children have the very best start in life, starting with breastfeeding and the continuing concerns about insufficient support—consistent support—for breastfeeding to ensure that all families are able to breastfeed their children. I think that we also need to ensure that families are supported to wean their children effectively. Unless people are able to combat the barrage of commercial messages that come across—. People are being sold these baby foods that contain sugar, which, frankly, ought to be banned, and there's really nothing more depressing than seeing a clinically obese child, who absolutely is a victim of the situation. They can't choose what is put in front of them, and it's really distressing to see that families and commercial interests are getting in the way of the child's interest. We have to use our schools as a place to re-educate those children who haven't had that level of support in their nutritional interest at home. But this is a really, really challenging situation. In my own school, where I'm a governor, a secondary school, I know that only 30 per cent of children have had breakfast before they come to school, and that is without exploring exactly what that breakfast constitutes. So, I think that's a major issue for me.
There's a particular issue that I wanted to raise around strengthening the requirement for parents to register if they choose to electively home educate their children, because I think there's a real loophole in the law here. We're not talking about this being a safeguarding issue as a general rule, but, when parents make a decision to bring their children out of state education, they are making very big choices about the future of their children, and the socialising, as well as the learning, that they are denying them, unless there's very, very good alternative provision at home. So, I'd be particularly interested to learn what you think might be able to be done there.
But I think that the—. Overall, I think it's going to be extremely difficult for us to safeguard all children in the light of the reduction in the amount of child benefit, as well as the overall reduction in benefits and the introduction of universal benefit, which is going to plunge more children into poverty. So, I welcome the Minister's response as to what we can do, working with the children's commissioner, to ensure that all our children are safeguarded.

Joyce Watson AC: I too welcome the opportunity to debate the important findings, recommendations and priority areas outlined in the Children's Commissioner for Wales's annual report. It certainly is fitting that it's being discussed during Anti-Bullying Week. I think it's right that we take the opportunity to both reflect on what has been a year of progress and achievement for children's rights in Wales, but also to look ahead to the challenges of what remains to be done.
I was pleased to see that safety in the community, school and home is one of the six priority areas for the commissioner. Children have an absolute right to feel safe in their schools, in their communities and at home. Bullying can and does have lifelong detrimental consequences on both the physical as well as the mental well-being of children that experience it. Many of us here will know that, earlier this month,Chris Elmore, Labour MP for Ogmore, bravely spoke about his horrific experiences of bullying in school, which he said resulted in him needing surgery for his injuries and having multiple mental breakdowns. Chris said that his attackers had attacked him because, and purely because, they thought that he was gay.
I was happy to read about the progress made in this priority area through the creation of 'AGENDA: A young people's guideonmaking positive relationships matter'. It's a resource available to young people online, and it provides a range of creative ideas that enable young people to lead healthy relationships—education to prevent and combat bullying related to sexism and homophobia. It's a fantastic resource that's been created by young people for young people in conjunction with the NSPCC, Cardiff University, Welsh Women's Aid and Welsh Government. AGENDA helps young people to develop creative ways of confronting gender-based and sexual violence. It aims to raise awareness of how gender-based and sexual violence affects not only young people here in Wales, but around the world as well. I'd like to urge my colleagues to become familiar with it, because it really is a great research.
It was only yesterday that the Church of England released new guidance to their schools that advocates allowing primary school children to dress how they choose without comment from teachers or pupils. This new guidance came about as polling from the Anti-Bullying Alliance found that two in five children were hiding aspects of themselves. I would be keen to know if the Minister feels that, in light of that, and the fact that there are many schools run by the Church in Wales—or voluntary-aided schools—we might need to revisit guidance given to non-church-controlled schools within the rest of Wales, because the last thing that any of us would want is two sets of guidance for pupils in Wales.

There are a few more speakers, but I just will make a gentle reminder that, if you wish to speak, you should be present in the Chamber at the start of the debate. However, today is quite a challenging day for a few—but if we just could bear that in mind for the future. Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the commissioner's report, and would like to thank her for all her hard work to date and for producing the report. The commissioner says, and I quote:
'My vision is for every child in Wales to have the equal chance to be the best they can be'.
This is a laudable vision—one I hope we all have—but why does it take someone outside Labour's Government to say this before they listen? Labour seem to be increasingly outsourcing their policy making, to the extent that many people—myself included—cannot help but come to the conclusion they're devoid of any good ideas of their own. After 20 years of uninterrupted power, why are these announcements still having to be made? No doubt Labour will say they've always been committed to equality of opportunity for the children of Wales, so why, after two decades of uninterrupted power, have they not achieved it? Perhaps they should farm out more of their policy making, because it is clear they can't do it themselves. They've outsourced children's equality; they outsource their education policy, as we heard from Kirsty Williams recently, saying she would adopt a third party's recommendations on learners being entered into GCSE exams early; and the Government has even taken to outsourcing its own Cabinet positions.
Why did it take a commissioner to point out that some local authorities are providing good provision for care leavers, and some aren't? Why, after 20 years of Labour, is that happening? I doubt it's a new phenomenon, so it must have been ignored, or incompetence at governmental level has failed to solve the inconsistency. Why, after 20 years of Labour, does the commissioner need to highlight that many parents of deaf children are still being left without the ability to communicate with them, due to a lack of provision to learn British Sign Language? Can anyone here imagine the sadness and difficulties caused by not being able to communicate with your own child?
We hear lots of talk from this Governmentabout rightly making efforts to improve provision for people to communicate in the Welsh language, but nothing about helping those with communication difficulties, even when they're children. Why, after 20 years of Labour, does the commissioner feel she has to highlight that, rather than reducing differences, inequalities of access to mental health support for children and young people are being perpetuated? Why, after 20 years of Labour, does the commissioner have to beg the Government not to take travel subsidies away from 16 to 18-year-olds, even though many of those young people are still in education or training, and the legal definition of a child is nought to 18 years old?
There are many other examples from the report that I could cite that show the shortcomings of the entire Government, but limited time to speak prevents me.There are 10 press releases on the first page of news on the Welsh Labour Party website. Not one of them is about what they have done or hope to do for our children, and I wonder whether that's because children can't vote. Call me a sceptic, but a third of the articles on that page are dedicated solely to slagging off other parties.
So, in conclusion, this report proves two things. The first is that the children's commissioner is knowledgeable about the issues facing the children of Wales, aware of many of Labour's failings, and genuinely committed to achieving the best for our youngsters. The second is that, after 20 years of uninterrupted rule, Labour either cannot or will not do what is needed to give our children the best start in life. Leaving it up to someone else to spot the problems and suggest policy is not grown-up government. It is lazy management that shows a lack of passion, a lack of ideas and a total lack of competence. Thank you.

Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, in particular, for your consideration. Can I also congratulate the Minister on his appointment? He knows he has big shoes to fill. From my own part, I have to say I have great confidence in his serving the Government in Wales as ably as he did the UK Government previously.
I welcomethe report from Sally Holland, the children's commissioner, and thank her for the evidence she gave to the Children,Young People and Education Committee on 18 October. I think one area she deserves particular congratulation on is the lead she has taken in galvanising local authorities around the care leavers agenda. In particular, the £1 million bursary scheme, I think, is an excellent initiative. I think, relative to so many of the top-tier local authorities in England,the average Welsh local authority is relatively small for the social services workload that they will face, and I think having the children's commissioner there is an additional area to support those local authorities. To encourage them and to advise on the work they're doing with young people, I think, is valuable. I think one example we've seen, in Torfaen—the council tax and not having to pay that if you've recently left care—I think that's a very valuable thing, and I hope other local authorities will follow that lead.
One area I just want to flag when we're talking about looked-after children is when looked-after children are adopted. We have, in the school admissions code, that
'all admission authorities must give highest priority in their oversubscription criteria to looked after children as required by the Education (Admission of Looked After Children) (Wales) Regulations 2009 and previously looked after children as required by this Code.'
Now, in my own experience—and this is with a four-year-old and a five-year-old child currently—I've looked at quite a number of school admissions policies, and certainly my impression is that right at the top there is that category referring to looked-after children. I haven't, as yet, seen or understood that also to apply to previously looked-after children, including those who have been adopted, and I don't see the reference in the regulations. So, I just wonder whether the children's commissioner or the Welsh Government—. If we do want to have this guidance and we do want to see previously looked-after children, including those who are adopted, given this preference as well, could something more be done to ensure that actually happens? For instance, we might put out guidance that says, for the purposes of the admissions code, previously looked-after children should be considered to meet the definition of looked-after children. Because, otherwise, I fear this guidance is there, but I'm not, myself, as yet, convinced that school admissions policies in the main are changing to reflect it.
I think one other area where perhaps the children's commissioner in particular could assist is saying to schools, 'What are the particular needs of adopted children?' I do think there is potential value in highlighting to a school when a child has been adopted so that they are aware of that and there's appropriate guidance in place to help them support those children who, I think at least in some circumstances, do have very particular needs that need recognition.
Moving on to the National Deaf Children's Society issue, again, I think one thing in particular I'd like to see is accessible and affordable support, and in particular having British Sign Language support at all different types of level. I think that's very important within a home context.
Lastly, if I can just touch on two areas where the children's commissioner is perhaps somewhat more generous to Welsh Government than we on these benches might necessarily be. One of those is transport to school, and local authorities, and whether there's confusion and whether they're sufficiently clear about their legal responsibilities. I think more does need to be done on that. I also think, with the link to the twenty-first century schools programme, and where we are—. On integrating sixth-form colleges, for instance—again, to give a Torfaen example—we're going from three sixth forms down to one; what are the implications of that for school travel, and are local authorities doing enough, and getting enough support from national Welsh Government to do what needs to be done in this area?
Finally, in terms of the national advocacy service, Darren, I think, has much more experience of seeing the Welsh Government make announcements but not necessarily follow through as much or as quickly as we would like in this area. But it seems to me that, if we have a national advocacy service, or if that is the ambition, yes, there are some examples of local authorities who have good practice in this area, and that is to be welcomed, but if Welsh Government does believe that it should be a national advocacy service, we should surely move beyond that. If the Government can't afford that, or doesn't believe it can work at a national level, or they want to leave local authorities to do as they think best, they should say so, rather than continue to say there'll be a national advocacy service while not necessarily following through on the implementation. Thank you.

Caroline Jones AC: I'd first of all like to congratulate the Minister on his new position whilst acknowledgingthe outstanding commitment made by Carl Sargeant to the role.
I would like to thank the children’s commissioner and her team for their continuing hard work standing up for the rights of Welsh children and young people. As the commissioner has highlighted, the Welsh Government have accepted all the recommendations of the 'The Right Care' report and the Welsh Government have set up a task and finish group to deliver change for those in residentialcare in Wales.
However, the change is not happening fast enough, particularly for children and young people within my region of South Wales West. Bridgend council’s provision is particularly poor. Yesterday, media outlets reported on findings by the new director of social services and well-being that show that a high number of children are being placed in out-of-county care because the courts simply do not trust the service. These children who have already had the worst possible start in life are being taken away from the area, miles away from anyone they know.
This isn't the only time in the last few months that children's services in Bridgend have been the recipient of bad press. Earlier this year there were warnings that children in care in the county could be at risk of of sexual exploitation because the homes were based in areas where criminal activity, threats to kill and child abuse have taken place. These concerns appear to have placed significant doubt with the courts for them to have no trust in the service's ability to look after the children in its care.
The children's commissioner has shown that care homes have an important role to play in providing the right kind of care for some children and young people in Wales. She challenged the Welsh Government to improve the system. It is clear that not enough has been done to date. I am grateful to the children’s commissioner for her commitment in her annual report to continue to press the Welsh Government and local authorities to meet the duties under the social services and well-being Act. Bridgend council are not meeting the needs of children in care and I urge the new Minister for Children to take urgent action. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care to reply to the debate—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you all very much. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'm delighted to respond to this debate. There's only one thing I'm sure of already—I don't think I'll be able to respond to every single point that's been raised in the time available, but I will try and do my best.
Can I first of all just thank everybody for their kind words and comments about Carl Sargeant and the legacy that he leaves in this field? It's been remarked upon several times today—across the wide portfolio of ministerial positions he held in seniorpositions in Government—the impact that he had and how he drove through legislationand drove through the right policy with, in its heart, the right things in mind, the outcomes for the people we represent, and this is certainly one of those areas. So, I thank you for those comments and also for congratulating me in coming into this position. As I mentionedin my opening remarks, I'll try and do his legacy—and the legacy of other Ministers in thisposition—proud.
So, let me try and deal with some of the issues that were raised. If I don't get to all of them, I'll be happy to write in some detail to Members who've raised individual matters as well. Let me deal first of all with the issue of advocacy, which was raised by several people, including Darren. Within the children's commissioner's report, they raise the issue of advocacy, of course. Let me say that, although the national approach to advocacy isn't delivered directly by Welsh Government, we are indeed supporting its implementationand keeping an eye on how this is done.
We've got a funding commitment of up to £550,000 for the social services regional collaboratives, to deliver the active advocacy offer in full and to support the approach. But it's not enough to do that, we've got to monitor how it's happening. So, we will be monitoring the use of this grant funding on a quarterly basis and we're already committedto reviewing the implementation at the end of thefirst year—so 2018-19— and we're also looking at a longer term evaluation over the first few years of implementation. We want to make sure that this does work as active advocacy.
Several people, Darren included, have mentioned the issue of transport and transport subsidies. I can't respond directly to the particularConservative proposal on a green card, but what I can tell you,Darren, is: on the youth concessionary fares, as you know, the WelshGovernment is currently consulting on discounted bus travel for young people. It's an exercise aimed at capturing the views of youngpeople and other key stakeholders. We're very keen to explore the appetite to extend the range of discounted travel up to 24-year-olds. And based on the outcome of this consultation, which is ongoing, a new scheme for young people will, we hope, be introducedin April 2018—one that best reflects the needs and preferences of our young people and helpsfurther boost bus travel as an option. Again, a key thing to all of these areas is listeningto children and young people in developing those offers.
If I can turn to the issue of duty of care and the incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, particularlywithin the ALN Bill, which is currently going through—as Members will be aware, during Stage 2 of the Bill—and I look to my colleague on the right here as well, in terms of her committee chairing—the Ministerfor Lifelong Learning and WelshLanguage committed to consideringwhether a direct reference to both the UNCRC and the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities as well could be added by amendment to the Bill at Stage 3, and work is indeed under way to considerthis and to see what can be brought forward. It'll be an interesting few weeks on the committeenow to look at this issue.
Llyr raised a range of issues, not least the RAG ratings. I would say we're not always going to be in total synchronicity and agreement with everythingthe children's commissioner puts forward under her traffic light system within the RAG ratings as well. She has a purpose to fulfil there, and it's important to challenge and hold the Government to account and push in certain directions. We won't always agree.
We've noticed the commissioner's inclusion of RAG ratings in the report, analysing our responses to recommendationsmade last year. It's important to say I'm content, as a Minister, that we have respondedas we feel appropriate to last year's recommendations. But let me also say: going forward, we are continuingto work to improve the outcomes highlightedin the report for children and young people in Wales, and it's about working across Governmentto achieve those priorities, as we've set out in 'Prosperity for All'.
It is really unlikely that any Governmentwould ever agree to every recommendationthe commissioner will make. However, there are many factorswe have to take into account, but we do, however, engage, we listen, we respond, we debate, we discuss, we meet with the children's commissioner and we make changes where appropriate based on a strongevidential base. And, of course, the RAG ratings are based on the commissioner's perception of matters.For example,just to highlight the red rating against the recommendation for a specific child poverty delivery plan doesn't take into account the response that we've already provided to the commissioner. We've said clearly already that we do not believe a separateplan is needed; it's that cross-cutting thing right across Government that will come to some of the areas of policy that help in that. So, therefore, we believe that applying a red rating in that issue has little purpose, but we'll keep the dialogue going.
If I can turn to an issue that several Members have raised, which is to do with elective home education—a brief update here: officials of mine have met with home-educating parents to gather their views on revised guidance, and where they think as well there's a need for further clarity and support on issues such as legislation and training and so on, and my officials will continue to engage with members of the home-educating community. We are now looking at how current legislation is being used and the barriers that might be preventing some local authorities from using it. And we're also looking at patterns of elective home education that include developing a better understanding of why families decide to home-educate. And finally on this point, Members will be aware that the national independent safeguarding board commissioned the Children's Social Care Research and Development Centre at Cardiff University to undertake the review in the risks to children and young people who are educated at home. Now, when that report becomes available, we will carefully consider it and its recommendations.
If I could turn to the issues that have been raised by several Members around poverty—and this is a cross-cutting Government issue, I have to say, and is not within one silo—and just to highlight some of the areas, but there are many I could—things such as tackling holiday hunger, which is very much in the forefront of people's minds these last holidays. That, for example, was identified as a key priority in the Welsh Government's 2015 child poverty strategy for Wales, recognising the need to use all available policy levers to support low-income households in the here and now. So, further funding of £500,000 has been provided to support summer school holiday food and fun clubs last summer, and the money was offered to councils in the most deprived parts of Wales to help provide play schemes and meals over the long break. But it's also an issue of fuel poverty and what we do with Nest and what we do with Arbed, it's how we make sure that local authorities are making the best use of things like school uniform grants and so on and so on. It's an accumulativeeffect right across Government.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: If I could turn to the issues in, probably, the minute or so remaining, Hefin raised the issue of whether we'd continue to have dialogue with the children's commissioner on issues such as universal childcare, flexibility of Flying Start, ACEs and so on—absolutely right in saying that ACEs are not the be-all and end-all, some sort of hard-nosed, crude analytical tool: they need to be used to help the diagnosis of where the best early interventions can be made, that will insist the outcomes that we want to see for children and young people. If they're applied in a very crude way, frankly, they are unhelpful. So, they need to be used as an aid to what we do in terms of interventions, not as the be-all and end-all. But they are a useful analysis, I have to say, of where we could perhaps best exercise some of our early interventions.
He mentioned the aspect of Flying Start and flexibility that the children's commissioner and others have raised. Interestingly, in my area of Bridgend where Flying Start has been quite a success—and it's in many areas—one of the things I'm aware of is that there is some flexibility within the scheme, but it requires the local ability of those providing Flying Start to allow some slack within the Flying Start provision, so that when they have some slack they can actually extend it beyond the geographic boundaries as well into other areas, and we need to look at how we can do more.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm looking at the time and I think I'm probably within the last 30 seconds or so. [Inaudible.] Right, well can I just thank colleagues for very detailed—? You've probably covered every area of the children commissioner's report. Let me just finish by saying: we do need to ensure in all of this that we listen and take into account the views of children and young people about the issues that matter to them as well when making decisions that will impact upon them. And I know that I, and my Cabinet and ministerial colleagues right across the Cabinet welcome the opportunity to engage with children and young people, to hear the views expressed today and to take these ideas on board.
Now, I know this Assembly also values the participation of young people. We look forward to the development of the youth parliament, which is mentioned in the children commissioner's report and the introduction of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 on 1 April deepens the Welsh Government's commitment to children'srights. It requires us, and all other public bodies, to show we've thought through the effects of the decisions on life in the future as well as in this generation. So, going forward, we continue to work to improve outcomes for all children and young peoplein Wales, working across Government to achieve our priorities set out in'Prosperity for All'. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Debate: The Welsh Language Commissioner's Annual Report 2016-17

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We now move on to item 8 on this afternoon'sagenda, which is a debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report. I call on the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning to move the motion—Eluned Morgan.

Motion NDM6560Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
Acknowledges the Welsh Language Commissioner's Annual Report for 2016-17, which details the work undertaken by the Commissioner during the previous financial year.

Motion moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I start by saying what a pleasure it is to lead this debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner’s annual report? This is the first opportunity for me to speak publicly in the Chamber as Minister, and I have to say how much of a privilege it is to be responsible for Welsh language policy in the Welsh Government.
What’s at the heart of everything we do in terms of Welsh language policy is our aim of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. As my predecessor Minister, Alun Davies, set that challenge, I want to make it clear that I too am fully committed to that new strategy and that target of 1 million Welsh speakers. It is a very ambitious aim, but I do hope that we will focus on that target and that everything will be led from that target.
There are two things emerging from that strategy: that increase in achieving 1 million Welsh speakers and also increasing the percentage of people who actually use the Welsh language on a daily basis. At the moment, although some 20 per cent can speak Welsh, only around 10 per cent use the Welsh language. I’ve just returned from the Republic of Ireland, and there’s a relatively high number of people who speak Irish, but very few who actually use the language, and that’s an important issue.
One thing that is clear to me is that it is a very exciting time for the Welsh language. There is goodwill, I think, among the public, and I am eager to ensure that we take full advantage of that.
Any good strategy relies upon a combination of different things, and in the case of the Welsh language, that includes the creation of Welsh speakers, increasing the use of the language and putting the foundations in place, and, of course, regulation as part of that. I am therefore grateful to the commissioner for her annual report, which notes the work that has been done under her five strategic priorities.
The report also describes the work that’s been done during 2016-17 in terms of regulation and the Welsh language. During the time span of the report, the commissioner has also provided evidence to a number of Assembly committees, she has responded to many consultations here, she’s met with a number of Ministers and Welsh Government officials, as well as other politicians, and she has ensured that the Welsh language is taken into account when we draw up policies. The commissioner has also responded to complaints from the public and has placed statutory responsibilities on different bodies and organisations.
The commissioner has also commissioned research on the Welsh language in the areas of childcare, additional learning needs and customer attitudes towards the use of the Welsh language by supermarkets. Also of interest, I think, is the assurance report produced by the commissioner, which deals with the experiences of Welsh speakers, and this is part of the success of the standards regime, and to what extent public organisations assist people to use the Welsh language.
So, that, broadly speaking, is what’s contained within the report. Before I turn to some of the amendments, I just want to make it clear that I am very eager, at the very outset, to ensure that I approach this debate on how we should proceed with the Welsh language strategy with an open mind. I’ve only been in post for a week, and I wouldn’t want to tie myself or the Welsh Government into anything that would close down that debate today. So, I just want to make that clear at the very outset.
In turning to the first amendment, in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, which relates to the use of the Welsh language under the standards regime, I do think we need to emphasisethat there is a difference between the number of services offered by organisations on the one hand and the usage that people make of those services on the other, and I’m sure that we, perhaps, don’t take full advantage of the services available to us. It’s clear from the commissioner’s assurance report that was published in October, which is different to this annual report, that there has been an increase in what is made available, but, at the moment, there is no evidence in terms of usage and the number of people using those services. That evidence isn’t clear. So, we need to increase the number of people that use Welsh language services that the standards guarantee. Despite that, because the commissioner’s assurance report suggests an increase in the use of the Welsh language by bodies and organisations, I am going to encourage Members to vote in favour of this amendment.
The commissioner’s estimate for next year suggests that further funding will be required in order to maintain her reserves and, of course, we will take that into account. But, we must also bear in mind that we are in a very difficult period financially and everyone has to work within the means available to them. But, I am willing to acknowledge that we certainly need an adequate budget for the commissioner to maintain the regulatory system under standards.
If I could turn now, briefly, to the White Paper, I am very aware that I’ve huge issues on my plate: the WESPs, early years and improving the technology available through the medium of Welsh. I am also, of course, discussing the new Bill. At the moment, the consultation on the White Paper has just concluded. At this point, I’d like to respond to the second amendment in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, which calls for reconsidering the abolition of the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner, which is one of the proposals in the White Paper. The public discourse on the White Paper has been very vibrant, and may I say, first of all, that officials have received over 250 responses? There are many things that now need to be considered. The aim of the White Paper is to endeavour to ensure the right structures are in place to support the strategy, and particularly to give guidance on the promotion of the Welsh language and supporting organisations to improve their provision. I hope, and I want the time to weigh up those responses to the consultation, and we will then make an announcement, having considered those responsibilities. Therefore, I encourage people to reject the second amendment, because it undermines the point of the consultation. I need further time to assess the responses to the White Paper.
I’m sure there will be an opportunity on a number of different occasions in the future to discuss the Bill and the new strategy, but, today, I hope Members will focus on the work of the commissioner and the report that she has tabled.

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on Siân Gwenllian to move amendments 1 and 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Siân.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth
Add new point at end of motion;
Notes positive developments in Welsh-language use under the language standards system, which is managed by the Welsh Language Commissioner, only a year after they came into force, and which include:
a)that 76 per cent of Welsh speakers are of the opinion that public organisations' Welsh-language services are improving;
b) that 57 per cent of people believe that opportunities to use the Welsh language areincreasing;
c) an increase from50 per cent in 2015-16 to 96per cent in 2016-17 in the number of telephone services where a language choice is offered as default; and
d)an increase from32 per cent in 2015-16to 45 per cent in 2016-17 in the number of councils that provide every page on their website in Welsh.
Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth
Add new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to reconsider abolishing the role of Welsh Language Commissioner as outlined in the Welsh language Bill White Paper.

Amendments 1 and 2 moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and I’d like to congratulate Eluned Morgan on being selected in the role of Minister for the Welsh language and I’d like to thank Alun Davies for his work.
I’d like to move amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I note that the Government is in favour of amendment 1, but is against amendment 2. Our amendments to this debate today do emphasise the importance of the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner and how that role has ensured positive developments in the use of the Welsh language under the language standards system, and that after just a year of them being implemented. The report does compare statistics for a whole year under the standards system and the year that they came into force. For example, 76 per cent of Welsh speakers are of the opinion that public organisations’ Welsh language services are improving and 57 per cent of people believe that opportunities to use the Welsh language are increasing.
My job is not to defend the commissioner’s work, but you can’t deny the robust evidence that has been presented in this report. The statistics show how effective the role of the commissioner has been in the six years since the office was established. So, I am concerned, and those concerns are shared by a number of experts in the field of linguistics, that making any structural changes of the kind that are proposed in the White Paper of the Government for the Welsh language Bill are going to undo many of the positive developments that have happened so far.
I outlined in the debate on the White Paper a few months ago a number of reasons why the Welsh Government’s proposals for the Bill weaken our basic rights as Welsh speakers. This afternoon, I want to focus on the idea of abolishing the Welsh Language Commissioner.
In a secret letter from the international agency of language commissioners, the agency does say clearly that there is no better way to hold a Government to account than through one independent language commissioner. And they go on to say that they have come to this conclusion because of their extensive experiences in this field. In the letter, they argue that the language commissioner plays an important role in regulating the provision of Welsh language services, and that abolishing the role would damage the positive progress that has been made so far. This letter was signed by 10 language commissioners across the world.
If the aim of the Government is to strengthen the basic rights of Welsh speakers, as well as realising the target of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050—and I welcome your commitment to continue with that objective—if that is your aspiration, then simplifying the process and moving forward and introducing more standards is what’s needed, rather than making structural changes. We need to move urgently on with the work of introducing standards for other sectors. I do understand that you’re about to introduce standards for the health service and it’s about time that that happened. Reports on standards for housing associations have been on the desk of your predecessor for two years, and the water companies for almost two years, and buses and trains and railways for nearly a year. So, I do greatly hope that you, as the new Minister for the Welsh language, will reconsider the abolition of the role of the Welsh Language Commissioner and will move forward to expand the basic rights of Welsh speakers across Wales.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Suzy Davies AC: May I also start by welcoming the Minister to her new role and to wish her well? Perhaps she could start by explaining why voting against amendment 2 is in accordance with having an open mind on these issues. I thank the commissioner for her report; it’s a good idea to start with the 2011 census, given that the commissioner is fighting for her role, because she is bound to show that there has been improvement since 2011. The main impression drawn from this report is that the commissioner has been a little reticent in taking credit for much of the success that has taken place since 2011. The inputs and outputs are fine, but this is one report where the commissioner needed to actually boast about her own achievements.
The commissioner’s budget has reduced over the years and savings have been made, and this has gone hand in hand with a reduction in the promotional role of the commissioner. Whether the commissioner’s office continues in its current form or is amended, or if a new body is created, then, the Welsh Government will have to face two unexpected challenges. First of all, in terms of standards, it’s very likely that introducing standards for health services will ultimately, at some point, lead to more cuts and complaints, alongside more facilitation and enforcement work. Secondly, the promotion work, particularly encouraging community use of the Welsh language, must be uncompromising for an unspecified period.
This will cost money; it will cost more in ensuing years, and therefore the work to date must show value for money in order to fight for an enhanced budget for ensuing years, and to ensure that the 85 per cent of people who do feel pride in the Welsh language continue to feel that pride.
It’s clear from the report that a great effort has been put in to influencing Welsh Government policy. There has been some reference to the impact of that, but not much in the report. The commissioner may have missed an opportunityto draw attention to her successes and to talk about earlier inputs that have started to show positive outcomes now. This isn't the place for humility in terms of demonstrating the influence the commissioner has on Government policy.
In terms of securing justice for Welsh speakers, it's difficult to see, in this report anyway, the gravity of every complaint and possible failing. The Minister may be able to explain whether we will have that information in due time, to help us to assess arguments for and against the stronger dealings in certain standards. That is covered in the White Paper. It's interesting that more non-statutory concerns are raised rather than complaints about standards. Does this suggest that enforcement and facilitation is working? If so, why wait for the next assurance report? Claim that success now.
In returning to the main aim according to the commissioner herself, namely promotion, the report gives a great amount of information about how the commissioner has worked with sport, banking organisations and the third sector, and that's encouraging and interesting. With more resources, more could be done to bring more sectors along the pathway towards bilingualism without focusing so narrowly on standards. But, again, I would have liked to hear more about the outcomes and efficiencies of this work, not just inputs and outputs.
In a tight and highly estimated budget, otherwise, two comments: I am not sure why the programme costs line was so low when the outputs this year and—[Inaudible.]—last year were higher. It's a shame that more couldn't be given towards communication, particularly a social media strategy. It's ironic that the national aim is to enhance the ability of the nation to communicate in two languages, but there isn't enough funding available for the commissioner to do much of that herself.I would like to see the commissioner taking a visible and stronger role in engaging with non-Welsh speakers in terms of her promotion role. We need to actually turn some of the pride in the language into engagement with the language.
In the strategy to create 1 million Welsh speakers, we must think about adults today, not only children and not only by providing lessons for adults, but also to give them a role in promoting the language themselves. Non-Welsh speakers can be advocates for a better bilingual environment even if they're not bilingual themselves. They can ask for more bilingual signs or technology on trains and in shops and banks, and this is a way of demonstrating their pride. Perhaps it would bring new evidence to the debate on the best way of how to secure Welsh language rights in the private sector more generally.

Adam Price AC: Could I also welcome the new Minister to the post? Also, could I congratulate her for saying that she has an open mind? That has characterised her and her attitude towards politics generally, the fact that she does reach out to people. And we greatly need that, I think, in discussing where we go from here with this White Paper because the debate about the annual report, of course, naturally, on the Welsh language commissioner, is under the shadow of a policy, as it stands now in the White Paper, which talks of abolishing the commissioner. As we've heard already today from the leader of Plaid Cymru, the consensus of opinion in Wales—and as we heard from Siân Gwenllian, that is reflected outside Wales—is that that would be an empty step and would ruin the consensus on the language that has been built very carefully over the last decade. So, I would urge the Minister to think again about the way ahead.
It was interesting, wasn't it, to see the 10 language commissioners across the world coming together feeling so passionately about this, because some of them do admire the progress that has been seen in Wales with language policy over the last few years, but they were concerned, to tell the truth, that there is an error being made here. Commissioners from Canada, Catalonia and the Basque Country and Flanders and so forth were saying that we have to protect the fundamental principle of the independence of the commissioner and that an independent commissioner individually is the best model that works across the board. They talked of the experiences of Canada in the 1970s, for example,where the fact that the commissionerwas completely independent of the political process and the Government was a way to protect linguistic rights in that context.
I was trying to understand what was driving this suggestion, which was stupid, in my opinion, to get rid of a structure that is starting to deliver, as we’ve heard through the assurance report already. What was driving that? Some reference—that is, not much of an evidence base, to tell you the truth—to weaknesses in terms of governance. But, if we look at page 108 onwards of the report, we see that there is robust governance—the need for a strategic plan and performance reviews, and a deputy commissioner there as well, a management team, a risk and assurance committee, external audit and so forth. So, in my opinion, there is quite robust governance there.
Now, that doesn’t mean that we are satisfied with the current situation. There is scope for progress, certainly, but I wouldn’t say that the commissioner, perhaps, is to blame for that. For example, on page 58, there is talk of the private sector. It notes that, for example, with the water and sewerage companies, the commissioner has given a response to this consultation. In terms of the bus and train sector, which was mentioned earlier, the commissioner published a standards report on 1 July last year. That is, the Government is to blame that there’s been no progress in this direction. When we look at the gas and electricity sector and the utilities, the standards report was published by the commissioner in February 2017, and it has been on the desk of the previous Minister. So, could I ask the Minister to say whether we can move on now and have the response of the Government to these standards?
There is a reference on page 50 of the annual report to the freedom to use the Welsh language under section 111 of the Measure. It notes that, since the commissioner was established, 14 of the 18 requests under this Measure didn’t align with the definition of the section. So, since the commissioner’s role was established, there have only been two investigations into cases about the fundamental right to use our own language in our own country. So, there is scope for progress. There is scope in the new Bill to provide a fundamental right to people to speak Welsh. That’s what the Government should focus on, not getting rid of a body, which, according to the evidence that we have, is succeeding very well under the framework that exists at present.

Neil Hamilton AC: I would like to start also by congratulating my fellow Member for Mid and West Wales on her assumption of office. She does, of course, have a large void to fill, because her predecessor was certainly a substantial figure in the Welsh Government and in Welsh politics, and I hope I don't alarm her too much in saying that I look forward to supporting her with as much vigour as I supported her predecessor, because I was a great admirer of his in the way in which he carried out his functions as Minister for the Welsh language. So, I wish her well in her post, and I'm sure that she will be as successful as he was. I note also that there's been a touch of class added to the Government since the reshuffle, as now 15 per centof our Ministers are also members of the upper House in Parliament, and I think this is progress of a very high order. I welcome Dafydd Elis-Thomas also to his position. I look forward to more peers being appointed in due course, but that means we must have more peerages bestowed upon Members of this Assembly in order to achieve it, but there we go.
Anyway, I welcome this report, and I think that Meri Huwshas been a successful language commissioner, as we've heard.The reason why I supported Alun Davies so enthusiastically was that he has placed far more emphasis upon carrots than sticks in achieving the objective of achieving a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I think Meri Huws, when she gave evidence to the Welsh language committee, the culture and Welsh language committee, a few weeks ago, also showed the degree of flexibility that is required if we are to achieve this objective. When I asked her, 'What would you have done differently in the last five years if you knew then what you know now?', she said that
'the way in which we work with organisations that are captured under the standards regime has changed.'
To start with, they imposed standards, which were
'far more formal—arm’s length—in our approach to organisations. Perhaps we discussed issues less on a face-to-face basis. We were far more paper-based. That has changed',
as a result of which the relationship with local government has changed for the better.
As the Minister pointed out in her introduction to the debate today, it's no good just providing Welsh language facilities if people aren't going to use them. So, I think the overwhelming need at this stage in this process is to promote the use of the Welsh language much more vigorously than we have done in the past, and, yes, of course, in order to promote the use, you have to have facilities for people to use to make it worthwhile for that promotion to take place.
But I do think that there are very significant signs of progress quite beyond statutory schemes. Indeed, in the evidence that was given to the committee by the Welsh Language Commissioner recently, she said there are visible signs of people and organisations who don't have legal obligations taking the initiative on Welsh language provision voluntarily, rather than being forced to do so, and, over the past five years, organisations asking, 'How can I implement Welsh language provision?', rather than 'why?', has been significantly increasing, and I think that is the most optimistic sign. She says we see evidence of voluntary action on the ground in terms of our high streets. We hear Welsh being used more in business, in Cardiff city centre. She does believe that the culture has changed.
Of course, there's always more that can be done, but I do believe that the voluntary approach is one that is more likely to be successful in the long run, particularly as we try to break the language out of what we might call the 'laager' of the west and the north, where there's a much higher proportion of the population that understands and speaks it. If we are to bring English monoglot areas with us, I think this is the line that we have to take. So, I'm ambivalent on the question of whether the commissioner should be abolished and replaced by a commission, although I do think it was rather a weak response to the amendment put down by Plaid Cymru that—. If there's a consultation going on, we could see this amendment actually as part of the consultation, if you like, but I know that the Minister isn't going to announce today a decision that falls to be taken in due course.
But if we concentrate on outcomes rather than forms and structures of organisations, I think that is the way to go. We're going to abstain on this amendment today, because I haven't, like the Minister, quite made my mind up on whether this is the right way to go as yet. But I do think that we have made significant progress. The Government is to be congratulated (a) on bringing in the initial aim of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and the progress that has been made in a relatively short time. The current Welsh Language Commissioner has made a significant contribution towards that, and I think she's to be congratulated. I wish the Minister well in her conduct of her office in the coming years, and I look forward to working with her, rather than, as we've traditionally done, worked against each other.

Lee Waters AC: May I add my congratulations to the Minister on taking her new role? I can assure Neil Hamilton not to worry overly about the void that there is to fill. Eluned Morgan is a substantial figure in her own right, so I think we can be confident in her ability to take on this agenda with aplomb. I welcome that this is a positive report from the Welsh Language Commissioner. There has, as she notes, been a shift in public debate, and, as she herself says, that direction has been set to a great extent by the Welsh Government's target of 1 million Welsh speakers. And that very declaration of intent over the long term in itself has had a catalysing impact. I think that is something that we should all welcome, while,of course, recognising thenature of the challenge before us. This is, as we've discussed before, perhaps the most radical cultural policy in modern times, and we should be under no illusion about the challenges ahead of us, but it's one that we must all approach with relish.

Lee Waters AC: It's also very encouraging to note, in her report, the positive public debate that still persists. Eight-five per cent believe that the Welsh language is something to be proud of, and 76 per cent of Welsh speakers agree that public organisations are improving their Welsh language services. I think that is very encouraging.Also as encouraging is the fact that 68 per cent of people would like to see Welsh being used by supermarkets in Wales, and I strongly endorse that. I think there is no excuse for such large organisations, delivering essential public services, not to be engaging in the spirit of this legislation.401
I think it is important, as we take forward the evolution of our approach, that we set a culture where we are helping organisations to succeed and are not setting in place a series of bureaucratic hurdles that make it difficult for them to comply, where we try to trip them up. I think the commissioner agrees that the current process is overly bureaucratic. The legislation does set out a rather rigid approach which, having spoken to Welsh language officers from different parts of Wales, they themselves are frustrated by. For example,I was quoted the example where, if somebody makes a complaint about a local authority service, for example, the commissioner first has to conduct an investigation into whether she will look into it, which the commissioner's office always does. Therefore, this is an unnecessary part of the process; they could go straight into the investigation.402
So, I think having the benefit of experience of this legislation, there is much we can do to use resources more efficiently and to build goodwill in the process, because there's no doubt that some backs have been got up in local authorities in particular.403
I'm encouraged by the number of complaints there have been. There have been relatively few—151 complaints. Of these,124 were considered to be valid. Now, what we don't know, and what the commissioner was unable to tell theculture commissioner recently, is how many complainants there have been. There may well have been 151 complaints, and there could, of course, have been 151 complainants, but, equally, there could have been a much smaller number of complainants making repeated complaints.So, it would be useful to have some clarity on that.Of those complaints, a third are about correspondence and telephone services, and 32 complaints related to courses offered.So, this does not indicate a massive groundswell offrustration, although, of course, we should take them seriously. So, I think that is positive.404
Just to go on, then, finally, Llywydd, the commissioner herself makes the point that it's in education that the future of achieving this target, of course, is most essential. She notes that four out of five pupils are learning the language at school, which, of course, suggests that 20 per cent of pupils in Wales are not learning the language at school. This is in the context of where it's been the law for over a generation that all pupils in school, under 16, are taught Welsh. So, I think this lightly touched upon figure is pretty staggering, really, within that context, and I think it should alarm us. Not only are a fifth of schoolchildren not being taught Welsh, but the quality and the provision of Welsh amongst those that are being taught Welsh as a second language in schools that are English medium, which obviously remains the significant majority, simply isn't good enough in many cases. It's something Estyn has touched upon, and those of us who visit English-medium schools in our constituencies will be acutely aware of: it is, in many cases, a token effort. And I don't overly criticise schools for this. We are not developing the skills and the environment where enough of an emphasis is being placed on this. We often have children being taught Welsh by teachers who themselves don't speak any Welsh. This, to me, is the generational challenge for us if we are to meet this challenge we've set ourselves.
The commissioner says it's apparent that the growth of Welsh-medium education—. Sorry, she says that Welsh-medium education shouldn't just be—. Apologies, she's saying that the growth of Welsh-medium education is clearly the way forward. But I would say we shouldn't just be seeing this in the context of growth of Welsh-medium schools, because that is to let off the hook the majority of the schools that are tasked, under the current legislation and our current policy environment, to teach children to speak Welsh as an everyday language. That currently is not being done, and that's where I'd like our emphasis to bein the next period. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning to reply to the debate.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. May I start by paying tribute to Alun? I'm very pleased that he is back in his seat, because I do want to highlight just how much work he has done on this issue. His commitment to the Welsh language has been absolute, and he has been driving these ideas forward and aiming towards that target of a million Welsh speakers. I know that I can rely on Alun to help me in driving that forward within Government more generally.
May I thank Siân Gwenllian for her response? I do think that it's important that we do move forward with this aspiration to do as much as we can in as many different ways as possible. It's not all about standards. It's not all an emphasis on the commissioner. We must look at this in a far more holistic way.
What I don't want to do is to give this idea that, if we are going to change something, then whatever replaces it will be weaker. That simply won't be the case. I can be entirely clear on that. I am open minded, but I want everyone to be open minded on this issue, too. I do want to give that guarantee that this will not lead to any diminution.
I have spoken to the Welsh language commissioner this morning, and have underlined the importance of an evidence base for everything that we do, and also looking at the experience of other nations where minority languages are spoken. I think what Adam Price said is important, but I do want to ensure that we look beyond the systems currently available. Let's return time and again to look at the evidence and to look at what works best. I do think we need to simplify the situation and to make it less administrative. We must make it easier for people who have complaints.
Suzy, may I make it clear that I don't want to close down any options? If the idea is that we should retain the commissioner, well, that is an option. If we abolish, that’s another option. If I agree with the amendment, then I would be closing down one of those options, and I don’t want to do that.
Now, I do think that we must look in detail at the efficiency of the work that everyone within the sector does—how effective is the work that’s being done? I think we must ensure that this work—. I think that that's a fair point, that we engage better with non-Welsh speakers and Welsh learners. There is certainly scope to do that, and I do think that this is where we will make gains towards this aim of a million Welsh speakers.
Adam Price, you’ve said that there is a consensus of opinion. Well, I’m not aware of that consensus. I haven’t seen the responses, as of yet. Clearly, you haven’t seen the responses either, so I don’t think it’s fair to say that there is a consensus as of yet. We will see whether that consensus is in place and then, obviously, we will take that into account. But I do think that we should also consider that the report—

Adam Price AC: I was talking about the main Welsh language organisations thathave convened their opposition to the idea of abolishing the Welsh Language Commissioner.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, we need to listen to everyone in Wales. I think that’s important. There are professionals, there are others, and we need to listen to everyone, and we must reach the million. We have to listen to those people who will be learning Welsh. I want to listen to those people who don’t currently speak Welsh. I want to hear their opinions. Now, maybe they have responded, perhaps they haven’t.
In terms of standards, Neil Hamilton, I think you are right. Alun used

Eluned Morgan AC: carrots rather than sticks. I would also like to use carrots. I am very clear that, if you’re talking about language, you’ve got to persuade people. You can’t make people use a language.

Eluned Morgan AC: I think we have to be persuasive, rather than insisting that people do things. We do need more details in terms of the number of complainants and what was the efficiency of the commissioner’s office. I want to see benchmarking happening. And that’s something that jumped out at me, namely that only four in five children actually learn Welsh.We must look into the reasons behind that.
So, there are a number of things that we can do. I think the most important thing for us to bear in mind now is that we retain that focus on a million Welsh speakers. There is a pressure on the Government to lead in this area, and the Government will lead in this area. We must also think about the economy. The economy is crucially important in this discussion. But the Government can’t do all of this alone. The people of Wales have to join us on this journey and we have to persuade them to do that.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? Amendment 1 is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 1 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 2. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Motion to agree to the First Minister's recommendation to Her Majesty to appoint a Counsel General

The next item is the motion to agree the First Minister’s recommendation to Her Majesty to appoint a Counsel General, and I call on the First Minister to move the motion—Carwyn Jones.

Motion NDM6561Carwyn Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 9.1, agrees to the First Minister's recommendation to Her Majesty to appoint Jeremy Miles AM as Counsel General.

Motion moved.

Carwyn Jones AC: Formally, Presiding Officer.

Simon Thomas AC: I’m afraid that Plaid Cymru can’t agree to this motion in the current context at the moment. May I say, first of all, that I’m not questioning the ability or appropriateness of Jeremy Miles for this position in any way? Rather, I’m asking a more fundamental question as to why we are appointing a new Counsel General.
I want to pay tribute to Mick Antoniw. I think he carried out the work in an appropriate manner—it was what we’d hoped that a Counsel General would do in this Senedd. He has protected the rights of this Parliament from the threats emerging from Brexit, and the EU withdrawal Bill more specifically. He’s promoted access to the law and worked to simplify the law, working with the Law Commission in terms of reorganising the law in Wales. He’s raised the profile of the legal profession in Wales.
Of course, we as Assembly Members only see the Counsel General when he appears here to answer our questions. And the fact that we've moved from a position where only one Assembly Member was questioning the Counsel General to a position where there are many asking questions of the Counsel General does demonstrate that Mick Antoniw has responded to the vibrant interest in this Chamber in the constitution, and in the development of this parliament. I want to thank him for that, and he has certainly broadened the horizons of the post in a way that Plaid Cymru welcomes.
But, of course, the reason we have this motion today to change the Counsel General is because the Labour Party want to change the people they see as a possible future leader, members of a new Cabinet, a new way of doing politics—whatever it may be. Now, this is a reorganisation of the Welsh Government—[Interruption.] I will in a second. This is a reshuffle of the Welsh Government for the purposes of the Labour Party. I will give way.

Mark Reckless AC: Surely, a fundamental principle of our legal system is that a client should be free to choose their own legal adviser? Why would Plaid Cymru deny that right to the Welsh Government?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: He doesn't understand the constitution, that's why.

Simon Thomas AC: Those who want to change the constitution should have changed the Wales Act. You had an opportunity in the House of Lords to change the Wales Act in order to remove the ability of this parliament to approve the appointment of the Counsel General. If you are so vocal, you should have done it elsewhere where you have another job to do. You clearly didn’t have an eye on the constitution at that point. Now, unless you want to do that, you’re not in a position to criticise someone who is using parliamentary techniques to question a Government appointment. [Interruption.] Do you want to intervene?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I do want to intervene. I’m eager to intervene. I do have a problem, Llywydd, and I would like your assistance on this. It’s not a parliamentary convention in this house or in the other house to discuss different functions. It confuses advice.

Simon Thomas AC: You were wrong five years ago when Theodore Huckle was appointed, and you are wrong today. When it comes to an Assembly decision and a parliamentary decision, I have every right to discuss this. It is included in the law of the land that you voted for, and that’s why we’re discussing it.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: What's wrong with you today?

Simon Thomas AC: That's why we're discussing it. It's in the law of the land—[Interruption.] The second—

Simon Thomas, please continue.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Llywydd. The second reason why Plaid Cymru wants to change the system here is that we would want to see a system of pre-appointment hearings for a Counsel General. It is a system that is provided in those nations where law officials are appointed by the Congress—in the United States for example, where there is an open hearing. It is a system that has been experimented with in this place. The Finance Committee has used the system to appoint the chair of the WRA and I hope we will see more of that. It would be a good thing for the Counsel General to appear before the most appropriate committee—the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, I suppose, but it could be a temporary committee to deal with the issue—to demonstrate how he or she would want to undertake the role, how he or she would respond to requests from Assembly Members and to show that he or she would be an appropriate individual for this post.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. That, of course, doesn’t mean that the First Minister wouldn’t still be able to just make one nomination and that one nomination would be discussed as part of that process.

Simon Thomas AC: Exactly, because we’re not questioning the nomination process here. What we are questioning here is the fact that the Assembly should approve this nomination, which would then be passed to Her Majesty. That is something that should be agreed. If we’re only here to rubber-stamp these things then what’s the point of this debate? What is the point of the motion? What’s the point of a debate if we’re only supposed to say, ‘Well, yes, whatever you do as the Cabinet, that’s absolutely fine’? [Interruption.] Yes, okay.

Mark Reckless AC: I'm afraid I didn't really catch the Member's response to my point earlier. I think there was a sedentaryintervention you may have been replying to instead. But my fundamental point is: the Counsel General is the chief adviser to the Welsh Government, and surely it's a matter for the Welsh Government to choose who their chief legal adviser should be.

Simon Thomas AC: Well, I think—and I appreciate the Member might not have heard what I said—we have the Welsh constitution, which is that the Counsel General is an appointment of this Assembly. It has to be approved by this Assembly—recommended by the First Minister, appointed by Her Majesty, but approved by this Assembly. Now, you could make a coherent argument—I'm not saying you couldn't make a coherent argument, which you've just done—around the division between law officers and Government, but that isn't what we have in this constitution. It has been changed twice, as I said, in two different Wales Acts. This has not been changed or looked at or sought to be changed. And there are other Commonwealth examples from Canada, the United States, and other parts of the Commonwealth where this is the law and process, where we do have a way of voting on appointments of Government law officers—[Interruption.]
If I can just finish my point, I accept there's been a development of this particular law officer, which started in a corporate environment, if you like, and has now developed to be more of a law officer for the Government, but our constitution has not changed and therefore it's important that we don't become some sort of spoon-fed baby Senedd for the Government to decide who they want to put in place. When it comes to an opportunity where we can influence the Government's appointments, then as a parliament we should do that.

Mark Reckless AC: But isn't this a hangover from when we, perhaps, were more of a spoon-fed baby Assembly, as the Member puts it, and there was a Welsh Assembly Government and there was no legal distinction between one and the other? Now the Government is accountable to the Assembly and the Counsel General advises the Government, so surely the Welsh Government should decide. I am as keen to defend the rights of this Assembly as he is, but in this case, surely the First Minister and his team have the right to have their own choice of legal adviser.

Simon Thomas AC: I thought I'd finished and sat down, but shall I just carry on so that that can be read as an intervention?

There are no other speakers, and therefore I call on the First Minister to reply on behalf of his Government. Carwyn Jones.

Carwyn Jones AC: It is correct to say, of course, that the Assembly approves the appointment of the Counsel General, who is then appointed by the Queen. In fact, the Counsel General is in a situation where a Counsel General cannot actually be taken from Government by the First Minister. That can only be done by the Queen or via the Counsel General taking that decision for himself or herself. It's hugely important that the Counsel General is somebody who is a lawyer, for obvious reasons. It is right to say, as Mark Reckless has said, that the Counsel General is the chief legal adviser to the Government, not to the Assembly. And so what role the Assembly should play is difficult to envisage. Arguments have been made in this Chamber that there should be pre-appointment hearings for those who are in executive positions or chair positions for Welsh Government sponsored bodies. This is not the same thing: this is somebody who would be a member of Government. And just to deal with the point that Simon Thomas raises about the US, the US is not a Commonwealth country as he said, and secondly there's an entirely different system of government. I do regret the fact that we were given no notice of Plaid Cymru's concern,but we'll deal with it in the Chamber. The reality of it is that, in the US, there is a President who appoints a Cabinet of people, none of whom are elected—none of whom are elected. On that basis, then, the constitution requires that there should be a pre-appointment hearing by the legislature in order to make sure that somebody who isn't elected is the right person for the job within the Government—it's a wholly different scenario. [Interruption.] Yes, yes—[Interruption.] The Member for Ynys Môn was first.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Is it not the case that the last but one Counsel General was unelected?

Carwyn Jones AC: He was, and he was supported by this Assembly, without any requirement by Plaid Cymru at that time that there should be some kind of pre-appointment hearing. And so—

Simon Thomas AC: Will you give way?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, go on.

Simon Thomas AC: I specifically, five years ago, challenged the appointment of Theodore Huckle.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, there it is. This is the appointment of somebody who is a Member of this Assembly, who is a lawyer, who is somebody who is amply qualified for the job of Counsel General and somebody who will be the chief legal adviser to the Welsh Government. If concerns had been raised beforehand, we would have tried to deal with those concerns, but this is the first that we've heard of them.
Bearing in mind that we are going through Brexit, it is hugely important that we have a chief legal adviser who is able to advise Welsh Government on many issues, particularly Brexit. I'm sure Members wouldn't want us to be in a position where we don't have an adviser who is able to do that.
So, again, I move the motion. Mark Reckless will forgive me for not addressing his direct points, because I agree with every word he said. That might not happen very often, but on this occasion I'm grateful to him for the words that he has said. I regret the fact that what is an appointment of somebody in Government, who is there to act as a legal adviser, has been—. Well, there we are, it's the Assembly's prerogative to deal with it in this way, but, nevertheless, it is absolutely right to say that this, even though technically, even though legally, is an appointment of the Assembly, it is, in effect, the appointment of somebody who will become a member of Government, though not a Minister.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill

The next item is the motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to move the motion.

Motion NDM6562Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:
Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:
Sections 2 - 94
Schedule 1
Section 1
Long title.

Motion moved.

Kirsty Williams AC: I formally move the motion on the order paper.

I have no speakers on this item, therefore the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

12. Debate: Stage 3 of the Abolition of the Right to Buy and Associated Rights (Wales) Bill—Postponed

Item 11 and item 12 have been postponed, therefore the next item is voting time.

13. Voting Time

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I move immediately to voting time. The first vote is on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report. The first vote is on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 19, four abstentions and 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

NDM6560 - Amendment 2: For: 19, Against: 27, Abstain: 4
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Julie James.

Motion NDM6560 as amended:
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Acknowledges the Welsh Language Commissioner's Annual Report for 2016-17, which details the work undertaken by the Commissioner during the previous financial year.
2. Notes positive developments in Welsh-language use under the language standards system, which is managed by the Welsh Language Commissioner, only a year after they came into force, and which include:
a)that 76 per cent of Welsh speakers are of the opinion that public organisations' Welsh-language services are improving;
b) that 57 per cent of people believe that opportunities to use the Welsh language areincreasing;
c) an increase from50 per cent in 2015-16 to 96per cent in 2016-17 in the number of telephone services where a language choice is offered as default; and
d)an increase from32 per cent in 2015-16to 45 per cent in 2016-17 in the number of councils that provide every page on their website in Welsh.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 50, no abstentionsand none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

NDM6560 - Debate: The Welsh Language Commissioner's Annual Report 2016-17 Motion as amended: For: 50, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote, therefore, is on the motion to agree the First Minister's recommendation to Her Majesty to appoint a Counsel General. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Carwyn Jones. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 36, 14 abstentions and none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

NDM6561 - Motion to agree to the First Minister's recommendation to Her Majesty to appoint a Counsel General: For: 36, Against: 0, Abstain: 14Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 16:59.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Dawn Bowden: Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government support for economic development in the Rhymney Valley?

Mark Drakeford: We plan to continue to support businesses in their growth, invest in high-quality infrastructure and improve economic development conditions.

Michelle Brown: What assessment has the First Minister made of the effectiveness of the management of Welsh health boards?

Mark Drakeford: National health service organisations are statutory bodies that are accountable to their boards, Welsh Government and of course to the public they serve, to deliver on their duties. They are subject to regular assessment and review as part of the tripartite arrangements involving Wales Audit Office, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and Welsh Government that are in place.

Rhun ap Iorwerth: What support can the Welsh Government provide to Lein Amlwch?

Mark Drakeford: The national transport finance plan contains a commitment to consider opportunities to bring disused railways back into the transport network where there is a viable business case. We are investigating whether there is a case for the reopening of a railway station at Llangefni in the event of funding becoming available.